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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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I'm pretty sure some TLM'ers will disagree with this, but that's ok. Disagree. Agree. All comments are welcome. It's from something I published awhile ago.


"Ever since Vatican II (1962 -1965), there has been a debate within the Catholic Church about which Mass is best and/or authentic. Is it the Traditional Latin Mass, also known as the Tridentine Mass, or is it the new Mass promulgated by Vatican II, called the Novus Ordo?

I am embarrassed to say, but the debate has gotten so intense at times, it has divided the people within our very own Church. With the little research I have done, my sense is that both Masses are beautiful, valid and authentic - when done properly by the priest and congregation. (Yes, the congregation needs to do its part properly too.) Both Masses have their place, and like it is with so many other things in the Catholic Church, it is not an either/or, but a both/and.

Having said that, it is clear that the Novus Ordo has gotten a bad rap because it has been abused so widely; that is, the priest and congregation have gone outside the limits of what Mass is meant to be. One priest recently wrote about his experience celebrating the Novus Ordo [and you may want to read it]. - www.catholic.org

The bottom line is that we do not have to divide ourselves and put one form of Mass down over another. Instead, we can join together and celebrate both forms for what they literally bring to the Table.

Click here [ www.catholicbridge.com ]for the text of the English Novus Ordo Mass.
Click here [ www.catholicbridge.com ] for the text of the Traditional Latin Mass."


It is not just the text that makes up the Liturgy. The rubrics and how the priest and congregation adhere to the rubrics are important too. I don't have data on that, though.




Jul 15th new
When done with proper Matter,Form,and Intention.They are equally he Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus,under the appearances of Bread and Wine.It's other abuse that have crept in around the Mass that have been the problem.
Jul 15th new
(quote) Kathleen-878558 said: Having said that, it is clear that the Novus Ordo has gotten a bad rap because it has been abused so widely; that is, the priest and congregation have gone outside the limits of what Mass is meant to be.

"Widely" is probably not a strong enough word but that is the major problem.

Jul 15th new
(quote) Kathleen-878558 said: I'm pretty sure some TLM'ers will disagree with this, but that's ok. Disagree. Agree. All comments are welcome. It's from something I published awhile ago.

"Ever since Vatican II (1962 -1965), there has been a debate within the Catholic Church about which Mass is best and/or authentic. Is it the Traditional Latin Mass, also known as the Tridentine Mass, or is it the new Mass promulgated by Vatican II, called the Novus Ordo?

I am embarrassed to say, but the debate has gotten so intense at times, it has divided the people within our very own Church. With the little research I have done, my sense is that both Masses are beautiful, valid and authentic - when done properly by the priest and congregation. (Yes, the congregation needs to do its part properly too.) Both Masses have their place, and like it is with so many other things in the Catholic Church, it is not an either/or, but a both/and.

Having said that, it is clear that the Novus Ordo has gotten a bad rap because it has been abused so widely; that is, the priest and congregation have gone outside the limits of what Mass is meant to be. One priest recently wrote about his experience celebrating the Novus Ordo [and you may want to read it]. - http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=38684

The bottom line is that we do not have to divide ourselves and put one form of Mass down over another. Instead, we can join together and celebrate both forms for what they literally bring to the Table.

Click here [ http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/catholic_mass_full_text.php ]for the text of the English Novus Ordo Mass. Click here [ http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/catholic_mass_full_text_latin.php ] for the text of the Traditional Latin Mass."


It is not just the text that makes up the Liturgy. The rubrics and how the priest and congregation adhere to the rubrics are important too. I don't have data on that, though.




Kathleen, this intensity that you speak of that "has divided the people within our very own Church," is indeed a major point of contention between myself -a typically Novus Ordo attendee at Mass- and my good friend who refuses to step foot in a Novus Ordo Mass. He will only attend the Tridentine Mass no matter how far he has to go and has even gone so far as to say the Mass I attend is not a Mass at all! I've gotten into debate after debate, argument after argument, discussion after discussion about this, but he will not budge. I've attended Latin Mass with him on numerous occasions, and I think it is quite beautiful! I've read the articles and books and other sources he's shared to show my his 'side' of Catholicism, to which i always engage and respond with an open mind, yet he will rarely glance at anything I try and send his way to further explain and show the positivity that has occurred in the Church after Vatican II, I truly hurts my heart when he (and many others I've met at a few of the Churches he's attended), out and out dismiss the beauty of a properly done Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form Mass, some of whom are even so bold as to say it is 'fake' eyebrow sad I'm a born and raised Catholic who has held her Faith as best as she can as the basis for how her life is lived, yet this friend of mine, who is a convert of just over a decade, often diminishes my background and experiences of Catholicism because they are ,in his eyes, having taken place as the Church's (as he feels it should still be in the Traditional style) demise and partial protestantising has, according to him, corrupted the essence and meaning of the Mass. *sigh* This is all so strange to me, because other than the practice of the Mass, the majority of other aspects of our Faith are what have drawn us as friends. Personally I see value in both styles of the Mass and simply pray that these two 'sides' can come together to promote the essence of the Catholic Mass and adhere to the ways of Christ.
Jul 15th new
(quote) Kathleen-878558 said: I'm pretty sure some TLM'ers will disagree with this, but that's ok. Disagree. Agree. All comments are welcome. It's from something I published awhile ago.

"Ever since Vatican II (1962 -1965), there has been a debate within the Catholic Church about which Mass is best and/or authentic. Is it the Traditional Latin Mass, also known as the Tridentine Mass, or is it the new Mass promulgated by Vatican II, called the Novus Ordo?

I am embarrassed to say, but the debate has gotten so intense at times, it has divided the people within our very own Church. With the little research I have done, my sense is that both Masses are beautiful, valid and authentic - when done properly by the priest and congregation. (Yes, the congregation needs to do its part properly too.) Both Masses have their place, and like it is with so many other things in the Catholic Church, it is not an either/or, but a both/and.

Having said that, it is clear that the Novus Ordo has gotten a bad rap because it has been abused so widely; that is, the priest and congregation have gone outside the limits of what Mass is meant to be. One priest recently wrote about his experience celebrating the Novus Ordo [and you may want to read it]. - http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=38684

The bottom line is that we do not have to divide ourselves and put one form of Mass down over another. Instead, we can join together and celebrate both forms for what they literally bring to the Table.

Click here [ http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/catholic_mass_full_text.php ]for the text of the English Novus Ordo Mass. Click here [ http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/catholic_mass_full_text_latin.php ] for the text of the Traditional Latin Mass."


It is not just the text that makes up the Liturgy. The rubrics and how the priest and congregation adhere to the rubrics are important too. I don't have data on that, though.




Your second link is not the traditional Mass: it is an older version of the NO in Latin and English.

The page linked to below provides a side-by-side comparison of the TLM (in English) to the Novus Ordo Mass:
www.jeffandcorey.com

You are correct: many of the issues people have with the Novus Ordo Mass are not changes calledf for by Vatican II. Yes, the Novus Ordo Mass can be celebrated very reverently; however, the reality is that it many places such celebrations are difficult, if not impossible, to find.


Jul 15th new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: The page linked to below provides a side-by-side comparison of the TLM (in English) to the Novus Ordo Mass:
http://www.jeffandcorey.com/propers_rites/comparison.html



This is helpful. I was specifically looking for this reference. Thanks, Jerry.
Jul 15th new
(quote) Mary-466498 said:  my good friend who refuses to step foot in a Novus Ordo Mass. He will only attend the Tridentine Mass no matter how far he has to go and has even gone so far as to say the Mass I attend is not a Mass at all!

Nearly everyone on this site (ie < 60 years of age) has grown up with the NO Mass. I too will only attend a NO "under duress" so as to speak. After a long time without attending a NO Mass I recently had an extraordinary 10 days where I attended 3 NO Masses in 3 churches. This is what I found:

1) Hidden/obscured Tabernacles and weird modern structures.

2) Constant talking inside a Church. One of the NO Masses I attended was at a work conference. I mentioned to a guy attending that I found loud talking in a church to be a little disrespectful and he was eagerly agreeing with me but then thought nothing about having a chat with someone in the chapel before Mass.

3) The abuse of "Special Ministers" - There is nothing special when more people distribute Holy Communion than attendees at Mass. This is a big scam in the modern Church with the impact of diminishing the belief in the Real Presence. Those more traditionally minded Catholics consider this practice to be a heresy.

4) The lack of separation of the clergy from the people. The latest and greatest "apostolate" is the married diaconate. Together with the big cast of players on the altar the end game seems to be to reduce the importance of the priest (Persona Christi).

5) Watered down sermons- If the priest actually preaches a sermon, it is usually a feel-good sermon aimed at not offending anyone.

6) Casualness- Apart from talking before, after and sometimes during Mass, there is no motivation to dress up a little to honour Christ. I was very guilty of this myself in the past.

7) Implicit support of sin. I heard a raving endorsement of Pope Francis's comment about "who am I to judge" homosexuals. This is a new dangerous modern trend of not explicitly promoting a sin but making the language ambiguous enough to do so.

I can guarantee if I could find one NO Church in a city of 1.5m that reverently gave glory to God that I would never have set foot in a Latin Mass Church. I was 46 years old when I first did so and my only regret was that it took me so long to find the Mass of all time.







Jul 15th new
You're welcome, Nicole.

There are some other references you may find helpful at http://www.catholocity.net (under the calendar on the home page and on the Litury page (link in the top menu bar).

Jul 15th new
(quote) Mary-466498 said: Kathleen, this intensity that you speak of that "has divided the people within our very own Church," is indeed a major point of contention between myself -a typically Novus Ordo attendee at Mass- and my good friend who refuses to step foot in a Novus Ordo Mass. He will only attend the Tridentine Mass no matter how far he has to go and has even gone so far as to say the Mass I attend is not a Mass at all! I've gotten into debate after debate, argument after argument, discussion after discussion about this, but he will not budge. I've attended Latin Mass with him on numerous occasions, and I think it is quite beautiful! I've read the articles and books and other sources he's shared to show my his 'side' of Catholicism, to which i always engage and respond with an open mind, yet he will rarely glance at anything I try and send his way to further explain and show the positivity that has occurred in the Church after Vatican II, I truly hurts my heart when he (and many others I've met at a few of the Churches he's attended), out and out dismiss the beauty of a properly done Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form Mass, some of whom are even so bold as to say it is 'fake' I'm a born and raised Catholic who has held her Faith as best as she can as the basis for how her life is lived, yet this friend of mine, who is a convert of just over a decade, often diminishes my background and experiences of Catholicism because they are ,in his eyes, having taken place as the Church's (as he feels it should still be in the Traditional style) demise and partial protestantising has, according to him, corrupted the essence and meaning of the Mass. *sigh* This is all so strange to me, because other than the practice of the Mass, the majority of other aspects of our Faith are what have drawn us as friends. Personally I see value in both styles of the Mass and simply pray that these two 'sides' can come together to promote the essence of the Catholic Mass and adhere to the ways of Christ.
Hi Mary,

I admire your enthusiasm for your faith but would be interested in your elaboration about in what way the Church is "better" since VII? I am not looking for an argument but am interested in what the positives are?

I have aver also noted that many converts that hunger for the Truth go straight to the TLM because they see something very different and more holy in it than the Protestantism they came from.
Jul 15th new
If a discussion on this subject can be held, beginning to end, without acrimony, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Up to now it has proved to be a radioactive topic that has spread lots of ill feeling. That doesn't mean it should be off limits, of course; only that we need to find a different way of coming at it.
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