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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Hello everyone, just want to see what you opinion is on this subject? What should the United States do to the people responsible for the downing of Malaysian flight 17? I think we should mobilize a collective military response by us and by the United Nations, and go in permanently remove Putin from power. We need people in Russia that will work to establish a working democracy. Where tyranny is not tolerated. There should be a vote on what needs to be done to remove Putin. We been through one Cold War, we do not want to relive it again.
Jul 19th 2014 new
(quote) William-888220 said: Hello everyone, just want to see what you opinion is on this subject? What should the United States do to the people responsible for the downing of Malaysian flight 17? I think we should mobilize a collective military response by us and by the United Nations, and go in permanently remove Putin from power. We need people in Russia that will work to establish a working democracy. Where tyranny is not tolerated. There should be a vote on what needs to be done to remove Putin. We been through one Cold War, we do not want to relive it again.
I agree with the bolded statement.

What do our opinions matter? Even if someone responding here came up with the perfect solution, how will it change the course of events? None of have any direct control of the response, not do we have the ear of anyone who does.

The best course? Stop the endless useless banter and bickering and mobilize people to fast and pray for the future of our country and the world.

Jul 19th 2014 new
(quote) William-888220 said: Hello everyone, just want to see what you opinion is on this subject? What should the United States do to the people responsible for the downing of Malaysian flight 17? I think we should mobilize a collective military response by us and by the United Nations, and go in permanently remove Putin from power. We need people in Russia that will work to establish a working democracy. Where tyranny is not tolerated. There should be a vote on what needs to be done to remove Putin. We been through one Cold War, we do not want to relive it again.

We should do nothing about Malaysian Flight 17 except help in the rescue and
help figure out what downed the plane.

Removing Putin is not possible, just like removing Obama. They are only the
front men. There is a whole invisible hierarchy behind them. Putin is not
our responsibility, but Obama's crimes are ruining this country day by day
and week by week and that is something we should figure out how to
fix.

Our military has been so emasculated by Obama. We are not the
country we used to be. It is a crying shame. Whatever agenda is
being applied to change America, it is working. And it has been
going on for a long time.

Jul 19th 2014 new
(quote) William-888220 said: Hello everyone, just want to see what you opinion is on this subject? What should the United States do to the people responsible for the downing of Malaysian flight 17? I think we should mobilize a collective military response by us and by the United Nations, and go in permanently remove Putin from power. We need people in Russia that will work to establish a working democracy. Where tyranny is not tolerated. There should be a vote on what needs to be done to remove Putin. We been through one Cold War, we do not want to relive it again.

I completely and totally disagree with you, William.

1. What we should do about the downing of a foreign jetliner over foreign soil is precisely nothing. It is none of our business. Our job is to keep open the sea lanes. The air spaces belong to the countries under them. Our FAA has already suggested that our airliners reroute, which is prudent. That is enough.

2. It is not our decision who heads Russia. That is up to the Russian people. Whoever does head Russia is a person we should deal with diplomatically. The best way to poison a diplomatic relationship is to undermine the person in power. That would destabilize the situation. Bad idea.

3. The disputed area is one that, I have heard, Russia has had control or influence over for several centuries, and it is an important part of their industrial and agricultural base. Therefore, one cannot expect Russia to let it go without a fight. The US does not have a dog in that fight. It would be like if Texas seceded from the Union and then Russia decided to get involved and support Texas against the US. Americans would naturally be repelled by that policy, just as Russia is repelled by NATO expanding into Ukraine and the US siding with Ukraine on separating from Russian influence. The best thing we can do is remain neutral and have enough credibility to broker some non-military understanding. We've already blown our credibility there due to the continued incompetence of the Obama administration. Best thing now would be to shut up.

4. The USA should look to its own interests which are to keep its adversaries at loggerheads and support its allies, while maintaining a world open to trade and commerce. But one has to look at the big picture. Siding with Ukraine pushes Russia towards alliance with China. In the same way, prohibiting the pipeline from the Dakotas pushes Canada to sell their oil to China. We don't want to be adversarial towards either Russia or China, but it would be worst for the US if Russia and China allied against the US. How does that help anything? Is supporting the rabble rousers in Ukraine worth that? Definitely not, and especially since Russia hold all the cards in that fight and will ultimately prevail. All they need to do is shut off the gas lines to Europe and half the world will kowtow to them. It is not in the interests of the US to be involved here.

5. It is the Malaysian Government's responsibility to manage their national airline with prudence. If they fail in this task, it is not our responsibility. Flying over a war zone is stupid. Enough said. I suppose our State Department could advise travelers not to use Malaysian Airlines. That is enough.

6. I can't help but be reminded how an American ship accidently shot down an Iranian airliner during the conflict with Iran. The best technology of the era failed because there was an attitude of belligerence on the ship that did not comport with the fuzzy international situation...very similar to the situation here. This will probably turn out to be a mistake, and there will be regrets, but in such a situation you work to de-escalate, not fan the flames of hatred and retaliation.

The last thing the USA should do is destabilize the situation. The USA should be prudent and wait for facts. She could offer technical expertise in determining facts, but even there, with the repeated lies from the Obama Administration, it is doubtful anyone would believe anything the US government said about it anyway. Best to stay out of it. Let the parties involved deal with it. Airspace over land is a very different animal than the high seas.

Jul 19th 2014 new
There can be little to add to Gerald's magisterial reply. At the same time, I can hardly believe that William is serious. Start World War III over the Malaysian jetliner? Archduke Francis Ferdinand, call your office.... :)
Jul 19th 2014 new
(quote) Gerald-283546 said:

I completely and totally disagree with you, William.

1. What we should do about the downing of a foreign jetliner over foreign soil is precisely nothing. It is none of our business. Our job is to keep open the sea lanes. The air spaces belong to the countries under them. Our FAA has already suggested that our airliners reroute, which is prudent. That is enough.

2. It is not our decision who heads Russia. That is up to the Russian people. Whoever does head Russia is a person we should deal with diplomatically. The best way to poison a diplomatic relationship is to undermine the person in power. That would destabilize the situation. Bad idea.

3. The disputed area is one that, I have heard, Russia has had control or influence over for several centuries, and it is an important part of their industrial and agricultural base. Therefore, one cannot expect Russia to let it go without a fight. The US does not have a dog in that fight. It would be like if Texas seceded from the Union and then Russia decided to get involved and support Texas against the US. Americans would naturally be repelled by that policy, just as Russia is repelled by NATO expanding into Ukraine and the US siding with Ukraine on separating from Russian influence. The best thing we can do is remain neutral and have enough credibility to broker some non-military understanding. We've already blown our credibility there due to the continued incompetence of the Obama administration. Best thing now would be to shut up.

4. The USA should look to its own interests which are to keep its adversaries at loggerheads and support its allies, while maintaining a world open to trade and commerce. But one has to look at the big picture. Siding with Ukraine pushes Russia towards alliance with China. In the same way, prohibiting the pipeline from the Dakotas pushes Canada to sell their oil to China. We don't want to be adversarial towards either Russia or China, but it would be worst for the US if Russia and China allied against the US. How does that help anything? Is supporting the rabble rousers in Ukraine worth that? Definitely not, and especially since Russia hold all the cards in that fight and will ultimately prevail. All they need to do is shut off the gas lines to Europe and half the world will kowtow to them. It is not in the interests of the US to be involved here.

5. It is the Malaysian Government's responsibility to manage their national airline with prudence. If they fail in this task, it is not our responsibility. Flying over a war zone is stupid. Enough said. I suppose our State Department could advise travelers not to use Malaysian Airlines. That is enough.

6. I can't help but be reminded how an American ship accidently shot down an Iranian airliner during the conflict with Iran. The best technology of the era failed because there was an attitude of belligerence on the ship that did not comport with the fuzzy international situation...very similar to the situation here. This will probably turn out to be a mistake, and there will be regrets, but in such a situation you work to de-escalate, not fan the flames of hatred and retaliation.

The last thing the USA should do is destabilize the situation. The USA should be prudent and wait for facts. She could offer technical expertise in determining facts, but even there, with the repeated lies from the Obama Administration, it is doubtful anyone would believe anything the US government said about it anyway. Best to stay out of it. Let the parties involved deal with it. Airspace over land is a very different animal than the high seas.

I agree ,we have no business doing anything other than offer technical and humantarian assistance. The Incident with the Vincennes showed how human misinterpretation of data can lead to disaster. The recordings by the AEGIS weapons system, clearly showed that the aircraft was climbing, not descending , and that the squawk box was in mode III civilian code 6760.The downing of the Malaysain aircraft was obviously the work of not too bright sepratists with sphisticated missles, thinking they were shooting down an AN26. The only question is did they have any equipment to decode the transponder signal from the airliner.



Jul 19th 2014 new
(quote) William-888220 said: Hello everyone, just want to see what you opinion is on this subject? What should the United States do to the people responsible for the downing of Malaysian flight 17? I think we should mobilize a collective military response by us and by the United Nations, and go in permanently remove Putin from power. We need people in Russia that will work to establish a working democracy. Where tyranny is not tolerated. There should be a vote on what needs to be done to remove Putin. We been through one Cold War, we do not want to relive it again.
Gerald made a lot of good points. I would like to add that in regard to the situation in Ukraine, the US is already doing what it feels it can do to show the governments concern over Russia's/Putin's aggression in the area. I am not even sure I agree with that because though sanctions can have some effect on corporations, I feel that in the long run, in a situation like this, the only people who will be harmed are the citizens that live in countries that do business with Russia. There were no Americans on the flight. Most of the people killed were Dutch and other EU nationals along with some of Asian countries. If there is to be any response at all, it should be from those countries. We don't have any skin in this game. Like Gerald said, it will likely turn out to be either a) a mistake, or b) an overzealous "rebel."
Jul 19th 2014 new
Doggone it Gerald, you're always bringing calm, rational common sense to these discussions~ you're no fun!
Jul 20th 2014 new
(quote) Peter-449116 said: Doggone it Gerald, you're always bringing calm, rational common sense to these discussions~ you're no fun!

Sorry, Peter! I'm more fun on a sailboat with my ukulele. :-)

Trust me, girls: I can be fun. I'm not always so nerdly. Yet, I am a nerd, I will admit. But a fun loving nerd, I hope!!! I'm a nerd who can sail 2800 miles in a 28 foot boat and love it.

Jul 20th 2014 new

The Vatican would not support this idea. It will have moral and prudential reasons but, in part, it will be because the Russian Orthodox Church is a true church, not an ecclesiastical organisation, and for the Vatican to support the move would cause it to confront another branch of the true church. In fact, it may end up confronting the other true branches as well, the other national Orthodox churches (Bulgarian, Greek, etc.) which are brothers to the Russian Orthodox Church.


The Russian Orthodox Church is an important element of Russian society and history and Putin, who, I think, regards himself as belonging to this church, will want to enlist its prestige in his cause. He will want the Patriarch to make a statement requesting peace. The Patriarch may ask the Pope to use his influence on belligerent Western leaders. The Church needs to avoid becoming wedded to the shenanigans of one generation because it may end up being widowed in the next. St Paul says that one should consider another's interests before one's own. The Pope will be concerned about what difficulties he will be exposing the Russian Orthodox Church and its Patriarch to if he is seen to be supporting some Western Catholic or Protestant fire-breathers.

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