Faith Focused Dating. Create your Free Profile and meet your Match! Sign Up for Free
A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Jul 29th 2014 new

I read in a Local Catholic publication that we are not to join the Free Mason Club. I did not know they were actively trying to damage the Catholic Church. I thought all that activity was in the past. Are there other organizations we need to be leery and aware of today?

Jul 29th 2014 new
I am not aware of any other social organizations that Catholics are not to join. The Elks, Odd fellows, VFW, Rotary, etc., should all be OK. The Masons are a special case, having to do with being a secret society, and history that I am not very familiar with.

I noticed that Francis declared that if you were a member of the mafia, you excommunicated yourself. There might be some other extreme groups, but you probably would stay away from them anyway. White supremacists come to mind......
Jul 29th 2014 new

Thanks Richard

I have been away from the church for many years. I am back now but I am still reeling from the changes.

When I was a child in parochial school we were taught to be leery of Protestants. Is that the same? I am asking so I can learn the new ways.


Jul 29th 2014 new
(quote) Shirley-1031992 said:

I read in a Local Catholic publication that we are not to join the Free Mason Club. I did not know they were actively trying to damage the Catholic Church. I thought all that activity was in the past. Are there other organizations we need to be leery and aware of today?

Shirley, I am not sure if you would call it an organization, but I think
radical Islam is a group that would want to destroy the church with
death chants to infidels.


Jul 30th 2014 new
I think that one of the changes in Vatican II was more openness to the world, and that includes ecumenism.

Pope/Saint John Paul issued a document on ecumenism. I have not read the document, but I understand that he worked hard to try to bring together various Christian churches.

According to John Paul II, "The entire life of Christians is marked by a concern for ecumenism; and they are called to let themselves be shaped, as it were, by that concern". And he adds: "Thus, it is absolutely clear that ecumenism, the movement promoting Christian unity, is not just some sort of 'appendix' which is added to the Church's traditional activity. Rather, ecumenism is an organic part of her life and work, and consequently must pervade all that she is and does; it must be like the fruit borne by a healthy and flourishing tree which grows to its full stature".

So I think that a lot of the old ideas about Protestants are now obsolete. For instance, if a Catholic marries a protestant, the protestant is no longer required to swear that the kids will be raised Catholic.

Another example is the question of whether you have to be Catholic to be saved. (This is sort of related to ecumenism.) In the past, that was the church's position. This position has changed, and you no longer have to be Catholic to be saved, but somehow if you are not Catholic and are saved, that you were saved through the Catholic church.

This is also one of the areas where the doctrine of the Church has significantly changed in the last 100 years, even to the extent that some priests refused to accept the change in doctrine, and were basically thrown out of the Church. Basically, the church does some fancy arguing so that they can claim that doctrine never changes, even though it clearly has changed in certain areas. Capital punishment is another area where church doctrine has clearly changed. Those are the two areas of doctrinal change that I am most familiar with.

Jul 30th 2014 new
(quote) Richard-831657 said:
Another example is the question of whether you have to be Catholic to be saved. (This is sort of related to ecumenism.) In the past, that was the church's position. This position has changed, and you no longer have to be Catholic to be saved, but somehow if you are not Catholic and are saved, that you were saved through the Catholic church.

This is also one of the areas where the doctrine of the Church has significantly changed in the last 100 years, even to the extent that some priests refused to accept the change in doctrine, and were basically thrown out of the Church. Basically, the church does some fancy arguing so that they can claim that doctrine never changes, even though it clearly has changed in certain areas. Capital punishment is another area where church doctrine has clearly changed. Those are the two areas of doctrinal change that I am most familiar with.

The church's position on Both these questions has not changed.

The Church still teaches that Capital Punishment is allowed. All Pope St. John Paul II said that in the modern world he personally, not speaking infallible, see no reason for it.

Nevertheless the less, as a Catholic you are free to be for or against the death penalty.

Even as a kid, long before VII, I was thought that it was possible for non-Catholics to be saved.

Christ Himself says in the Gospels that he who does not know what He teaches is not held accountable, while those who have heard and believe are accountable. The good criminal crucified with Jesus was obviously not a Catholic and he probably was not a Jew, He was not baptized, which Christ also said was a requirement. But Christ told him he would be in Paradise with Him that very day.

Lets face it, without access to the Sacraments, any non-Catholic has a hard time making it. On the other hand in some ways they have it easier than us, because we do believe, we are Catholic and as Christ said we who have much have more expected of us.

Despite your belief that the Church has changed its teachings on these two matters, the Church teaches today what it has taught for 2000+ years. Nothing has changed.

Jul 30th 2014 new
Vatican State penal code included capital punishment until 1969. And you say that the church has not changed its doctrine?

www.firstthings.com

If you look at the history of the abolition of capital punishment, the Vatican changed its position after many European states had already abolished capital punishment, so it was really a follower on this subject.

The council of Florence declared the following:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

I have a hard time reconciling facts like the above with the idea that doctrine never changes. ;-)


Jul 30th 2014 new
(quote) Richard-831657 said: Vatican State penal code included capital punishment until 1969. And you say that the church has not changed its doctrine?

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2001/04/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment

If you look at the history of the abolition of capital punishment, the Vatican changed its position after many European states had already abolished capital punishment, so it was really a follower on this subject.

The council of Florence declared the following:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

I have a hard time reconciling facts like the above with the idea that doctrine never changes. ;-)


What's your point about the Council of Florence?
Jul 30th 2014 new
(quote) Richard-831657 said: Vatican State penal code included capital punishment until 1969. And you say that the church has not changed its doctrine?

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2001/04/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment

If you look at the history of the abolition of capital punishment, the Vatican changed its position after many European states had already abolished capital punishment, so it was really a follower on this subject.

The council of Florence declared the following:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

I have a hard time reconciling facts like the above with the idea that doctrine never changes. ;-)


The fact that the Vatican abolished capital punishment in its penal code has absolutly nothing to do with the unchanged teaching that capital punishment is permissible.

See paragraph 2266 of the Catechism. Paragraph 2267 specifies that punishment without bloodshed is preferred.if the objective of properly protecting the public safety can be accomplished.

Your cite explains it well. There is no change to the Churches teaching that capital punishment is permissible.

Despite what the cite from the Council of Florance says, it has always been understood as I outlined in my previous response. We must remember that the average Protestant today is not a heretic. They may beleive what is considered heretical beliefs. But most of them were born and raised as Protestants. By definition then, they are not heretics since they have not rejected the Catholic Faith which they never held.

Nevertheless, Christ's words as recorded in the Gospels, trumps all.

The Church has always qualified the "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" statement in accordance with Christ's words.

We must also understand that although we may be constrained by the Sacraments, God is not.

Maintaining a strict interpetation as you posit puts one in the untenable position that Calvin fell into, double predestination. If the strict interpretation is correct, then it follows that God has created billions of people through the ages specifically for hell. As he created and still creates them in a time and place where they have absolutely no opportunity whatsoever to hear anything about Christ, His Church and the Sacraments. Ergo, according to the strict interpretation they have no possibility of salvation.

That is a heresy condemned by the church.
Posts 1 - 10 of 13