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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

We know that people originally join CM to find love. So, in that vein, let us have a charitable exchange about world events in a civil, respectful fashion. Can we dialogue about how the Church views migration, backed up with scholarly response, proof, and forethought in accordance what has worked throughout history? Also accepting the cruel mistakes of some actions done in colonisation, not just saying that he who wins the war deserves the land. That is narrow minded and doesn't take into account the full picture of genocide.

(I am trying to type this on a tablet and the CM site is playing up, so forgive any typos and layout problems).

The TFP recently made a post which seems to contradict the Vatican response.

The Australian Church quotes a whole heap of documents to support it's claim. Notably, the oldest source is one from Pope Pius 12 in 1952, followed by Pope John 23 in 1963. It is interesting, though, that they have not quoted the Church fathers. However, they posit that

'The Catholic Church teaches the demands of human dignity always come before the national interest'.

www.acmro.catholic.org.au.

TFP says 'Secondly, Saint Thomas teaches that immigration must have in mind the common good; it cannot destroy or overwhelm a nation'

www.tfp.org.

I must admit I am inclined to take on what the Bishops teach rather than the TFP, but I think I will be shot down for looking as if I am a Cafeteria Catholic. Should we just go by what the Vatican teaches, and the International interperetations thereof, or should we simply take a liberal vs conservative viewpoint?
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Aug 15th new
This is not scholarly, but as a kind of opening salvo:

We are supposed to share what we have with others, but the man who gives all his money to strangers so that his own children go without groceries is being irresponsible rather than saintly. The number of poor in the world is so great that if we took them all in we would succeed only in becoming poor ourselves; and our potential enemies, such as China, who have put themselves under no such moral obligation, could take us over and make us their subjects. I would need overwhelming evidence to accept that this is in accordance with the will of God. Nor would I lightly disregard St. Thomas's warning that immigration cannot be allowed to destroy or overwhelm a nation.

Also, when we take someone in from another country, we deprive that country of that person's gifts and talents.Toronto hospitals are full of excellent Iranian and Arab doctors, but their talents are lost to their home countries. We haven't even had to invest in their upbringing and education; the old country did that, then we come in and skim off these skilled people, essentially for our own profit. We might better fulfil such moral obligations as we have to other nations by entering into fair-trade and similar agreements with them, rather than stripping them of their best and brightest.
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Paul-1049651 said: This is not scholarly, but as a kind of opening salvo:

We are supposed to share what we have with others, but the man who gives all his money to strangers so that his own children go without groceries is being irresponsible rather than saintly. The number of poor in the world is so great that if we took them all in we would succeed only in becoming poor ourselves; and our potential enemies, such as China, who have put themselves under no such moral obligation, could take us over and make us their subjects. I would need overwhelming evidence to accept that this is in accordance with the will of God. Nor would I lightly disregard St. Thomas's warning that immigration cannot be allowed to destroy or overwhelm a nation.

Also, when we take someone in from another country, we deprive that country of that person's gifts and talents.Toronto hospitals are full of excellent Iranian and Arab doctors, but their talents are lost to their home countries. We haven't even had to invest in their upbringing and education; the old country did that, then we come in and skim off these skilled people, essentially for our own profit. We might better fulfil such moral obligations as we have to other nations by entering into fair-trade and similar agreements with them, rather than stripping them of their best and brightest.
Paul, I agree with your post. We do no one any good at all if we prostrate our country. I know I have said this before but immigration policies can be tested on a very small scale--ones own home and wallet. If you can no longer pay the mortgage or utilities, you, your family and your 'immigrant guests' lose; you are all on the streets and hungry.
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Meg-920823 said: Paul, I agree with your post. We do no one any good at all if we prostrate our country. I know I have said this before but immigration policies can be tested on a very small scale--ones own home and wallet. If you can no longer pay the mortgage or utilities, you, your family and your 'immigrant guests' lose; you are all on the streets and hungry.
Yes, but can someone show me statistics about how REALLY generous the US is? Are they really 'prostrating' ???
What percentage of the National kitty is the US actually spending on this issue? I know that the number of illegals has gone over the millions, but how much per person is being spent? Are Americans really going hungry over this?? Yes, there is a worldwide employment issue at the moment, but how many legal US jobs are really being 'taken' by the refugees?
Any statistics?
And any real ideas for a solution for this issue, which will not adversely affect America, but at the same time compassionately deal with the reality? What is Obama or anyone else doing to heal this problem long term?
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Paul-1049651 said: This is not scholarly, but as a kind of opening salvo:

We are supposed to share what we have with others, but the man who gives all his money to strangers so that his own children go without groceries is being irresponsible rather than saintly. The number of poor in the world is so great that if we took them all in we would succeed only in becoming poor ourselves; and our potential enemies, such as China, who have put themselves under no such moral obligation, could take us over and make us their subjects. I would need overwhelming evidence to accept that this is in accordance with the will of God. Nor would I lightly disregard St. Thomas's warning that immigration cannot be allowed to destroy or overwhelm a nation.

Also, when we take someone in from another country, we deprive that country of that person's gifts and talents.Toronto hospitals are full of excellent Iranian and Arab doctors, but their talents are lost to their home countries. We haven't even had to invest in their upbringing and education; the old country did that, then we come in and skim off these skilled people, essentially for our own profit. We might better fulfil such moral obligations as we have to other nations by entering into fair-trade and similar agreements with them, rather than stripping them of their best and brightest.
You are being pretty hard on Canada. Don't these Iranian and Arab doctors have a moral obligation to their own countries? Instead of becoming rich and fat in the West.
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Amy-1104389 said: Yes, but can someone show me statistics about how REALLY generous the US is? Are they really 'prostrating' ???
What percentage of the National kitty is the US actually spending on this issue? I know that the number of illegals has gone over the millions, but how much per person is being spent? Are Americans really going hungry over this?? Yes, there is a worldwide employment issue at the moment, but how many legal US jobs are really being 'taken' by the refugees?
Any statistics?
And any real ideas for a solution for this issue, which will not adversely affect America, but at the same time compassionately deal with the reality? What is Obama or anyone else doing to heal this problem long term?
We have homeless Americans and unemployed citizens. Our country is in a huge amount of debt. From where should this money come? Emotion aside, can you find some money for this--real money, not borrowed money.
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Tom-54311 said: You are being pretty hard on Canada. Don't these Iranian and Arab doctors have a moral obligation to their own countries? Instead of becoming rich and fat in the West.
Sure, that's the other side of it. I'm just saying that the contrast often drawn between altruistic immigration advocates and selfish immigration restrictionists is too simple.
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Amy-1104389 said: Yes, but can someone show me statistics about how REALLY generous the US is? Are they really 'prostrating' ???
What percentage of the National kitty is the US actually spending on this issue? I know that the number of illegals has gone over the millions, but how much per person is being spent? Are Americans really going hungry over this?? Yes, there is a worldwide employment issue at the moment, but how many legal US jobs are really being 'taken' by the refugees?
Any statistics?
And any real ideas for a solution for this issue, which will not adversely affect America, but at the same time compassionately deal with the reality? What is Obama or anyone else doing to heal this problem long term?
In case you haven't heard, Amy, the US is 18 trillion dollars in debt. We are printing 75 billion dollars a month to stay afloat. That printed money is coming from the blood, sweat and tears of my children and grandchildren. And yet, we continue to this day, to be the most generous nation in the world. Americans will really be going hungry over this and soon. And when we go hungry the rest of the world will be in chaos. We have given the lives of more of our young men to win freedom for other people, than any nation that ever existed. Look up the acres, and acres, and acres of grave sites of American soldiers in France.
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Aug 15th new
You are so right, Tom.
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Aug 15th new
(quote) Amy-1104389 said: Yes, but can someone show me statistics about how REALLY generous the US is? Are they really 'prostrating' ???
What percentage of the National kitty is the US actually spending on this issue? I know that the number of illegals has gone over the millions, but how much per person is being spent? Are Americans really going hungry over this?? Yes, there is a worldwide employment issue at the moment, but how many legal US jobs are really being 'taken' by the refugees?
Any statistics?
And any real ideas for a solution for this issue, which will not adversely affect America, but at the same time compassionately deal with the reality? What is Obama or anyone else doing to heal this problem long term?
NUMBERS USA will give you an abundance of statistics.

NUMBERS USA: www.numbersusa.com

Legal immigration vs. illegally entering or invading the U.S.A. vs. true refugee status is not one in the same, despite activists opposing our nation's right to sovereignty and immigration laws attempt to create that perception.

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