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This room is for those who have lost a spouse and need support or who can provide support to those who have.

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06/18/2012 new

(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said: Anyone whose read my posts knows my parish priest has been cruel and nasty to me so obv...
(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said:

Anyone whose read my posts knows my parish priest has been cruel and nasty to me so obviously I'm not discussing anything with him. I'm changing parishes but not fully changed over yet. I don't need a parish priest to tell me what my children will do after I die. They are doing what I told them to do: immediate cremation, funeral mass, and sprinkle me over my son's grave.

It's about honoring his wishes and I don't see someone who wasn't in the faith as being required to go against their wishes. I'm being scattered after death so that's why I feel strongly about honoring people's last wishes. But...since this is a woman whose husband has died arguing seems inconsiderate.

I will say to the OP: Follow YOUR heart. If you truly believe he WANTED to be scattered, don't ask for advice, just go do it. If you're not sure what he wanted, then by all means talk to someone who knew him and loved him not strangers who have no understanding of what made him the man you loved. Words out of a book cannot always explain the complexities or realities of every situation. My thoughts and prayers are with you. I'm very sorry this turned into a disagreement but at least you had a view different viewpoints. My heart is sad for you and I pray you will do what you feel he would truly want, because in the end, all that matters is the love you had together. He will always be with you in that way. Blessings to you and my deepest compassion in your loss.--God bless you and welcome home to the Church.

--hide--
Not knowing your parish priest's side of the story, I'll just say you might be better off in a different parish. You might encounter the same problem because you are giving your own view priority over his.

What you said about following your heart goes back to my previous comment about basing one's actions on emotions rather than thinking them through. Emotions are great gifts -- if used properly -- and they certainly do a great deal to enhance our lives. However, emotions can also cause us a great deal of trouble and pain. As an example, we can look at marriages that were based more upon emotions than serious thinking. Balance between the two is the key.

Here's a silly question to help you understand my point. It's extreme, but not meant to be facetious. If a person's wishes included having his/her body dumped from a plane over a WalMart store, would you still back up that decision?

Getting back to discussing this with a priest, it doesn't have to be one from your parish, especially if you two have had disagreements. There are others to talk about this and other spiritual matters. I'm sure you can easily find one who would be more than willing to listen to you.

06/18/2012 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: Here's a silly question to help you understand my point. It's extreme, but not meant to be ...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Here's a silly question to help you understand my point. It's extreme, but not meant to be facetious. If a person's wishes included having his/her body dumped from a plane over a WalMart store, would you still back up that decision?

--hide--



I bowed out of the discussion for the sake of the OP who has lost her husband not to turn this into my own forum. I am more than willing to have a discussion about funerals/burials/Church ideals if someone wishes to open a forum discussion on this but this is HER question, her struggle, and her pain....but in answer to your facetious question, yes--I would.

You can feel free to private message me as I always welcome debates/discussions/ideas as that is how I grow. But let's put the focus back on the OP where it belongs.

06/18/2012 new

(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said: I bowed out of the discussion for the sake of the OP who has lost her husband not to...
(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said:




I bowed out of the discussion for the sake of the OP who has lost her husband not to turn this into my own forum. I am more than willing to have a discussion about funerals/burials/Church ideals if someone wishes to open a forum discussion on this but this is HER question, her struggle, and her pain....but in answer to your facetious question, yes--I would.

You can feel free to private message me as I always welcome debates/discussions/ideas as that is how I grow. But let's put the focus back on the OP where it belongs.

--hide--
Agreed, Lorrie. We should respect the OP, and will do so.

06/20/2012 new

Gwen, it's a blessing to return to the practice of the Catholic Faith. You've been given a second chance and you took it--thank God for his Mercy. As per your question: now that you are in full communion with the Church and other CMers have steered you to what is the right thing to do---not scatter his ashes, but inter them respectfully--you have a major responsibility to follow the Church's teachings. It is you who must answer to God for your actions. Your husband's wishes were misquided. He's not able to judge you. Ask and you shall receive God's peace in your struggle.

My prayers are with you now and in the future.

06/20/2012 new

Gwen,
I can empathize with your situation, since I went through it too. My husband
was 62 years old diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and died with in 2 months. He
was a veteran. Years back in a casual conversation, he told me it is cheaper to
be cremated if he dies first. Also since I am from India, If I wish I can go
back to India and take his ashes with me, instead of staying here and visiting
his tomb. I did not have any will or any other word from Tom after that.
However, I asked the opinion of his sister and brother. They told me to decide,
and Tom will be happy with whatever I decide. Since I knew that after the
Vatican Council II, the Catholic Church allowed cremation, that was not an
issue. Since everyone in my family including my parents were buried, I felt
uncomfortable to keep his ashes with me. Since he has a devout cathoic I did
not have to question about the Funeral Mass and burial. He even prepared
himself to die by receiving the sacraments and and by the grace of God have a
very peaceful death, even though he suffered a lot of pain in his illness. When
I received His remains, I buried him in the Veteran's cemetary. He died in
December 2008, and I feel good that I have a place to go and visit him, which I
continue to do very often. Remember that we are dust and unto dust we will
return, but our soul will be with Jesus in Heaven. Now I believe that I have my
husband to pray for me from heaven. He used to tell me, "I can help you
more from heaven like the LittleTherese when I die than I am here on earth"
I miss him terribly, but we have to believe that we will meet our dear ones in
heaven.

I would like to share a quote from Henry Van Dyke about death.
Gone from my sight
I am standing upon the seashore. A ship at my side spreads her while sails to
the morning breeze and starts for the blue oscean. She is an object of beauty
and strength. I stand and watch her until at length she hangs like a speck of
white cloud just where the sea and sky come to mingle with each other. Then
someone at my side says: there, she is gone!" Gone where? Gone from my
sight . That is all. She is just as large in mast and hull and spar as she was
when she left my side and she is just as able to bear the load of living
freight to her destined port. Her diminished size is in me, not in her. And
just at the moment when someone at my side says: "There, she is
gone!" there are other eyes watching her coming, and other voices ready to
take up the glad shout: "Here she comes!" And that is dying.

06/25/2012 new

I found this on a Catholic Forum: You may want to read it

Italian Church won't object to scattering of ashes, newspaper reports

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

www.catholicnews.com

ROME (CNS) -- Although the Catholic Church would prefer that those who die be buried in the ground, cremation is acceptable and, in certain circumstances, the church in Italy will not object to a person's ashes being scattered, reported the daily Catholic newspaper Avvenire.

The Italian bishops released their new translation of Catholic funeral rites in November, for the first time adding prayers to be recited at a crematorium and for a funeral celebrated in the presence of the deceased's ashes rather than a body.

The texts, Avvenire reported in a series of articles Jan. 9, were relatively unknown until a secular newspaper reported that a priest in northern Italy refused a Catholic funeral for a man who had asked that his ashes be scattered in the mountains.

The Diocese of Aosta later issued a statement saying that although the priest had hesitated, in the end there was a Catholic funeral and "church funerals will be celebrated for all the faithful, including those who have chosen the scattering of their ashes as long as the choice was not made for reasons contrary to the Christian faith."

Until 2001, Italian law prohibited the scattering of ashes. The Cremation Society's international statistics noted that in 2005 just under 9 percent of Italians who died were cremated; the percentage in the United States for the same year was about 32 percent.

Father Silvano Sirboni, a pastor and liturgist, wrote in Avvenire that while cremation was an ancient practice the spread of Christianity brought with it a growing desire to be buried in the ground as Jesus was.

Cremation was introduced into Italy in the early 1800s under Napoleon's rule, "for hygienic reasons," but became popular among opponents of the pope's temporal rule over Rome and surrounding territories, Father Sirboni said.

Cremation became a "sign of aversion to the church and its doctrine," he said. Consequently, the 1917 Code of Canon Law denied a Catholic funeral to those who had chosen cremation.

In 1963, the Vatican issued new norms permitting Catholic funerals for those who wanted to be cremated as long as they had not chosen cremation as an expression of disbelief in the Resurrection or in other Catholic doctrines, Father Sirboni wrote.

The Italian bishops' pastoral guidelines, issued along with the new translation of the rites, said Catholic funerals should be denied to those who request their ashes be scattered if they are motivated by "a pantheistic or naturalistic mentality" which denies the existence of one God, who is separate from his creation.

Father Sirboni said this guideline was meant to "dissuade people from certain choices" and to encourage priests to discuss the choices with a family and make decisions on a case-by-case basis.

06/25/2012 new

I was having trouble with the link working so here's a cut and paste of the article:


ITALY-CREMATION Jan-9-2008 (460 words) xxxi

Italian church won't object to scattering of ashes, newspaper reports

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

ROME (CNS) -- Although the Catholic Church would prefer that those who die be buried in the ground, cremation is acceptable and, in certain circumstances, the church in Italy will not object to a person's ashes being scattered, reported the daily Catholic newspaper Avvenire.

The Italian bishops released their new translation of Catholic funeral rites in November, for the first time adding prayers to be recited at a crematorium and for a funeral celebrated in the presence of the deceased's ashes rather than a body.

The texts, Avvenire reported in a series of articles Jan. 9, were relatively unknown until a secular newspaper reported that a priest in northern Italy refused a Catholic funeral for a man who had asked that his ashes be scattered in the mountains.

The Diocese of Aosta later issued a statement saying that although the priest had hesitated, in the end there was a Catholic funeral and "church funerals will be celebrated for all the faithful, including those who have chosen the scattering of their ashes as long as the choice was not made for reasons contrary to the Christian faith."

Until 2001, Italian law prohibited the scattering of ashes. The Cremation Society's international statistics noted that in 2005 just under 9 percent of Italians who died were cremated; the percentage in the United States for the same year was about 32 percent.

Father Silvano Sirboni, a pastor and liturgist, wrote in Avvenire that while cremation was an ancient practice the spread of Christianity brought with it a growing desire to be buried in the ground as Jesus was.

Cremation was introduced into Italy in the early 1800s under Napoleon's rule, "for hygienic reasons," but became popular among opponents of the pope's temporal rule over Rome and surrounding territories, Father Sirboni said.

Cremation became a "sign of aversion to the church and its doctrine," he said. Consequently, the 1917 Code of Canon Law denied a Catholic funeral to those who had chosen cremation.

In 1963, the Vatican issued new norms permitting Catholic funerals for those who wanted to be cremated as long as they had not chosen cremation as an expression of disbelief in the Resurrection or in other Catholic doctrines, Father Sirboni wrote.

The Italian bishops' pastoral guidelines, issued along with the new translation of the rites, said Catholic funerals should be denied to those who request their ashes be scattered if they are motivated by "a pantheistic or naturalistic mentality" which denies the existence of one God, who is separate from his creation.

Father Sirboni said this guideline was meant to "dissuade people from certain choices" and to encourage priests to discuss the choices with a family and make decisions on a case-by-case basis.

END

Copyright (c) 2008 Catholic News Service/USCCB. All rights reserved.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed.
CNS · 3211 Fourth St NE · Washington DC 20017 · 202.541.3250

06/25/2012 new

(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said: I found this on a Catholic Forum: You may want to read it Italian Church...
(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said:

I found this on a Catholic Forum: You may want to read it

Italian Church won't object to scattering of ashes, newspaper reports

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

www.catholicnews.com

ROME (CNS) -- Although the Catholic Church would prefer that those who die be buried in the ground, cremation is acceptable and, in certain circumstances, the church in Italy will not object to a person's ashes being scattered, reported the daily Catholic newspaper Avvenire.

The Italian bishops released their new translation of Catholic funeral rites in November, for the first time adding prayers to be recited at a crematorium and for a funeral celebrated in the presence of the deceased's ashes rather than a body.

The texts, Avvenire reported in a series of articles Jan. 9, were relatively unknown until a secular newspaper reported that a priest in northern Italy refused a Catholic funeral for a man who had asked that his ashes be scattered in the mountains.

The Diocese of Aosta later issued a statement saying that although the priest had hesitated, in the end there was a Catholic funeral and "church funerals will be celebrated for all the faithful, including those who have chosen the scattering of their ashes as long as the choice was not made for reasons contrary to the Christian faith."

Until 2001, Italian law prohibited the scattering of ashes. The Cremation Society's international statistics noted that in 2005 just under 9 percent of Italians who died were cremated; the percentage in the United States for the same year was about 32 percent.

Father Silvano Sirboni, a pastor and liturgist, wrote in Avvenire that while cremation was an ancient practice the spread of Christianity brought with it a growing desire to be buried in the ground as Jesus was.

Cremation was introduced into Italy in the early 1800s under Napoleon's rule, "for hygienic reasons," but became popular among opponents of the pope's temporal rule over Rome and surrounding territories, Father Sirboni said.

Cremation became a "sign of aversion to the church and its doctrine," he said. Consequently, the 1917 Code of Canon Law denied a Catholic funeral to those who had chosen cremation.

In 1963, the Vatican issued new norms permitting Catholic funerals for those who wanted to be cremated as long as they had not chosen cremation as an expression of disbelief in the Resurrection or in other Catholic doctrines, Father Sirboni wrote.

The Italian bishops' pastoral guidelines, issued along with the new translation of the rites, said Catholic funerals should be denied to those who request their ashes be scattered if they are motivated by "a pantheistic or naturalistic mentality" which denies the existence of one God, who is separate from his creation.

Father Sirboni said this guideline was meant to "dissuade people from certain choices" and to encourage priests to discuss the choices with a family and make decisions on a case-by-case basis.

--hide--
Lorrie -- Thanks for posting this. Note though that this pertains to Churches in Italy, not the United States. I haven't found anything more recent pertaining to what the US bishops conference has come up with (if anything) that differs from previously accepted practices.

One problem is that even with cremation, there are bone fragments. Cremation is not 100% successful at turning a deceased person's body completely into ashes. Another concept is that of respect for the human body -- regaraded as a Temple of the Holy Spirit. This has been a reason for keeping a person's body intact (as much as possible).

If you find anything recent that pertains to the US, please post it here so we can all learn by it.

06/25/2012 new

Thanks Ray,

I just ran across it today on a website and posted it for commentary. I wasn't sure if that can be used in these instances, but I think that the church is trying to really examine the history around cremation and scattering so it's neat that the church continues to question/challenge their understanding of these issues. Since it was 2008 I'm not sure they are really changing anything yet here in the US but it does say that "in certain circumstances" and that one can't be barred from a Catholic funeral if the family says they are scattering...I wasn't really looking for the info, just saw it on a forum.


Lorrie

06/25/2012 new

(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said: Thanks Ray,I just ran across it today on a website and posted it for commentary. I wasn&...
(Quote) Lorrie-735074 said:

Thanks Ray,

I just ran across it today on a website and posted it for commentary. I wasn't sure if that can be used in these instances, but I think that the church is trying to really examine the history around cremation and scattering so it's neat that the church continues to question/challenge their understanding of these issues. Since it was 2008 I'm not sure they are really changing anything yet here in the US but it does say that "in certain circumstances" and that one can't be barred from a Catholic funeral if the family says they are scattering...I wasn't really looking for the info, just saw it on a forum.


Lorrie

--hide--
It was an interesting article -- maybe signs of things to come. I'd still like to see people given the benefit of the doubt when possible, and in these cases, have a Catholic funeral Mass allowed. I think the Church refrains from approving of it, not always knowing the intentions of the deceased.

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