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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Sep 21st 2012 new
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I did read the rest of this discussion about "Asian" influences in our faith. When I can, I sometimes listen to an audio course of Catholic history as put out by a southern Califorina monastery. Possibly the course centers on Western influences of the faith. I was surprised that Plato was mentioned as an influence, but then again, this is only the beginning of this inquiry. St. Luke, of course, was a gentile, a Greek!
Sep 21st 2012 new

(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: Maybe I am just too ignorant to enter this phase of the discussion, but what is a koan?
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said:

Maybe I am just too ignorant to enter this phase of the discussion, but what is a koan?
--hide--


As I understand it, a koan is a Zen way of teaching that gives an apparent contradiction designed to open your mind to a piece of wisdom. It logically makes no sense or appears absurd, but it blows you mind open to something that is actually quite profound.

I guess the most famous Zen one would be:
Wherever you go,
there you are.

Jesus is not really Zen, but some of his teachings do have that flavor. They sound absurd on the face, but then your mind is opened. I guess the most famous would be:

Unlless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood,
you have no life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood
has eternal life.

John 6:53-4.
The literalists walked away when he said that one.

Or the one about being born again.

Sep 21st 2012 new


These are not exact bible quotes but these are two more..



Whoever would save his life must lose it. He must take up his cross and follow me.

Whoever is the least in the Kingdom will be the greatest.

Sep 21st 2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: These are not exact bible quotes but these are two more..Whoever would save h...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:


These are not exact bible quotes but these are two more..



Whoever would save his life must lose it. He must take up his cross and follow me.

Whoever is the least in the Kingdom will be the greatest.

--hide--


Yes, precisely. They are apparent contradictions or absurdities, but they can open your mind if you let them to a truth. Jesus used that idiom frequently, and that is what I mean by a more Asian idiom. You can bet that kind of teaching made the Greeks nervous. Pewrhaps, that's why Paul was sent to explain it to them.

Sep 21st 2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: (Quote) Marian-83994 said: These are not exact bible quotes but these...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:

Quote:
Marian-83994 said:


These are not exact bible quotes but these are two more..



Whoever would save his life must lose it. He must take up his cross and follow me.

Whoever is the least in the Kingdom will be the greatest.




Yes, precisely. They are apparent contradictions or absurdities, but they can open your mind if you let them to a truth. Jesus used that idiom frequently, and that is what I mean by a more Asian idiom. You can bet that kind of teaching made the Greeks nervous. Pewrhaps, that's why Paul was sent to explain it to them.

--hide--


I am certain that this is why Paul was sent. I have just begun attending a local parish bible study on The Book of Acts... I have been reading on Church History in two companion books by Christopher Dawson....The first is "The Formation of Christendom" and the second one is "The Dividing of Christendom. " Books by Dawson helps to solidify bits of other things I had been studying..

Paul spoke to the Greeks about how they even had an alter "to an Unknown God." I have been reading Greek philosophy. I find it fascinating that all of this philosophy was before Christ. I just can't get over how Aristotle and Plato had centuries to influence the world B.C.

Sep 23rd 2012 new

Getting back to the question posed by the OP.....

I, for one, am Introverted. And, there are more than a few who, at work, would characterize me as Uptight.

I like being with people, but recharge my batteries when alone.
I am uptight when it comes to doing the right thing by my people or being accurate in my data, or being correct in my navigation.
At play, I am more relaxed and loose.

Various people have wanted me to apologize for this and change my ways. I've thought about it, but said, "No." I am whom I was made to be. I will apologize for other things, like the many stupid thiongs I've said. But there is nothing wrong with being introverted, and being uptight is OK as long as it is about the right things. Were the engineers at NASA uptight during Apollo XIII? You betcha. They brought her home safely. Was Jim Lovell uptight there during the mission? Appropriately so, yet no more than necessary. He brought all three men home alive.

My earlier posts only mean to distinguish between appropriate uptightness and missing the real message of Christianity which is charitable love of our fellow Man with all his foibles.

Sep 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Jim-388330 said: All, As much as it may seem ridiculous to ask this question, I have had this discussion ...
(Quote) Jim-388330 said:

All,


As much as it may seem ridiculous to ask this question, I have had this discussion with someone before, and there seems to be an unfortunate stereotype that float around with the traditionalist label.


I've always viewed the Traditional Latin Mass to be an opportunity to give more time and prayer to our Lord such that we may hope to obtain special graces for our efforts, not only for ourselves, but for others as well. Does that mean I cannot at the same time employ my rather extraverted personality Have others seen this stereotype as well?

God bless,
Jim

--hide--


Five years ago, I took my 14 year old son to a TLM at St John Cantius in Chicago. As we were waiting for the bus to go home, I asked him what he thought. He said: "The Mass and the music were beautiful, but just about everyone there was bat---- crazy." His exact words. I wish it were otherwise, because I love the Latin Mass, but it seems to appeal to a very particular type. There are the barking mad sedevacantists. There are the insular and delusional SSPXers. The Anti-Semitism is appalling. There are the self righteous who see themselves as God's faithful remanant and exalt in pointing out that everyone else is going to hell. I had one nut chase me out into the parking lot after midnight Mass on Christmas Eve while I was carrying my infant son. She was screaming that i would go to hell because I attended the NO Mass most of the time. She chanted "you're going to hell" as I walked to the car. My son was screaming in terror. I finally turned around and asked how she was so certain of this. She said "I just know." So I told her to look around for me when she gets there and see if I'm there too. I thought she was going to hit me. They live in a delusional mindset where everything and everyone (but them) is evil. They keep their children at home. They refuse to interact with anyone. They adore conspiracuy theories. They imagine and say awful things about the Church, the Holy See, and the Pope. "Archbishop" Williamson is a manifestly insane Jew-hater and holocaust denier. He is disobedient. Yet people love the guy.


Some FSSP priests are beginning to address this in print and from the pulpit. the faithful remnant is outraged that they are somewhat less than perfect. They delight in cataloging the defects of others in the Church but they wail like calves in a hailstorm when anyone points out their many shortcomings. I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's because they have their own wills confused with the will of Almighty God, so anyone who notices their flaws is attacking not only them but God as well.



Sep 24th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Five years ago, I took my 14 year old son to a TLM at St John Cantius in Chicago. As we were ...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Five years ago, I took my 14 year old son to a TLM at St John Cantius in Chicago. As we were waiting for the bus to go home, I asked him what he thought. He said: "The Mass and the music were beautiful, but just about everyone there was bat---- crazy." His exact words. I wish it were otherwise, because I love the Latin Mass, but it seems to appeal to a very particular type. There are the barking mad sedevacantists. There are the insular and delusional SSPXers. The Anti-Semitism is appalling. There are the self righteous who see themselves as God's faithful remanant and exalt in pointing out that everyone else is going to hell. I had one nut chase me out into the parking lot after midnight Mass on Christmas Eve while I was carrying my infant son. She was screaming that i would go to hell because I attended the NO Mass most of the time. She chanted "you're going to hell" as I walked to the car. My son was screaming in terror. I finally turned around and asked how she was so certain of this. She said "I just know." So I told her to look around for me when she gets there and see if I'm there too. I thought she was going to hit me. They live in a delusional mindset where everything and everyone (but them) is evil. They keep their children at home. They refuse to interact with anyone. They adore conspiracuy theories. They imagine and say awful things about the Church, the Holy See, and the Pope. "Archbishop" Williamson is a manifestly insane Jew-hater and holocaust denier. He is disobedient. Yet people love the guy.


Some FSSP priests are beginning to address this in print and from the pulpit. the faithful remnant is outraged that they are somewhat less than perfect. They delight in cataloging the defects of others in the Church but they wail like calves in a hailstorm when anyone points out their many shortcomings. I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's because they have their own wills confused with the will of Almighty God, so anyone who notices their flaws is attacking not only them but God as well.

--hide--

Do people like this exist? Yes? Does this behavior represent a significant portion of those who attend the traditional Mass? No. Can people who behave in similar manners be found at the OF Mass? Yes (for examples, ask women for examples of the reactions when they wear mantillas to the OF Mass...).

The plural of anecdote is not data. A handful of bad experiences are just that -- a handful of bad experiences, not an accurate representation of the entire population.

Sep 24th 2012 new

what is an OF Mass?


no one is going to run them out of the church or refuse them Communion because they're wearing a mantilla. but that can and and sometimes does happen to the curious visitor who attends a TLM. why?

Sep 24th 2012 new

I do know (and have met) some very devout traditionalists who are fundamentally good people and mentally healthy. But for every one of those, it seems I encounter several terrified loonies. Why is this? The TLM is beautiful. I wish that the council simply translated the Tridentine Mass into the vernacular and called it a day. Although I do love the NO Mass when it's done with love and due reverence. (I wish the priest faced the altar rather than the people.) I love the writings of Marcel Lefevre. He taught me more about the meaning of the Mass than anything else I'd previously encountered at the time (this was back in the dark days of the 1980's). But why does this particular and wonderful form of worship seem to attract such vociferous nuts and haters? I understand that those are the people who get noticed and that most of the people at the TLM are devout souls who appreciate the form of Mass which was practiced from the earliest days of the Church until a half century ago. So I'm sorry if my comments seemingly swept everyone into the "disturbed" category. There are plenty of people I call "Paleo Catholics" who act in the same ways as those Trads I'm alsways bemoaning in here. They may attend the NO Mass, but they are just as insular, delusional, and judgmental as the worst of the trads. I suppose this is a temptation for many devout souls. Satan can't attack them with other temptations, so he snares them with despair and dislike of the Church and with his most potent weapons - pride.


Church liberals are equally bad or worse - but for very different reasons. Their mendacityi s appalling. At least the conservatives and trads rarely lie. Some may be delusional, but they don't twist the truth the way the left does. The "progressives" are far more dangerous to a wider spectrum of the Church than anything on the trad/conservative end of the spectrum. They hate certain aspects of the faith whereas the trads love the faith so much that they sometimes adopt dangerous or unchristian ways of showing this love. So the right is in a much better place spiritually. They are orthodox albeit in a quirky and sometimes disruptive or bitter manner - but they truly love the faith. This is why I have much hope for them than for the so-called "progressive" wing of the Church.


The enemy loves to divide and alienate people within the Church. The last thing I want is for his tactics to prevail upon the faithful, hence my rants in here and elsewhere.

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