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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: I'm not sure what you mean by your question about cultural practices.It seem...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



I'm not sure what you mean by your question about cultural practices.

It seems some people confuse honor with virtue. Same with integrity. Honor and integrity are virtues, but they don't also assume that a person with honor has any of the other virtues. Honor, being a virtue, is a good thing. But, honor is also the reason for much of the bloodshed, anger and revenge in the world too, so it is not enough by itself to create a good Christian or a truly virtuous person. However, I would agree that it is fundamental and a virtue without which most of the other virtues are vitiated.

For an exploration of honor to a Catholic, check out Jean Anoui's (sp?) play, "Becket." The subtitle is, I think, "The honor of God." A marvelous film was made of the play starring Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. Very close to the script of the play. At the end, one is left wondering, was it Becket's honor or God's honor? I'll say no more...worth reading or seeing it if anyone hasn't already.

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I am trying to understand the other parts of your post, but right now- understanding it escapes me.

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: I am trying to understand the other parts of your post, but right now- understanding ...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:




I am trying to understand the other parts of your post, but right now- understanding it escapes me.

--hide--


I guess I am being abstruse instead of clear. Let me try it this way. Virtues are desireable qualities in a person's character. Some are inborn, but others can be learned. There are many virtues, such as kindness, humility, honesty, thriftiness, diligence, faithfulness, perseverence, loyalty, courteousness, bravery, reverence, etc. Because one has one virtue, does not imply one has them all. A person who is honorable, will have honesty: his word is his bond, but this doesn't imply he is also thrifty or kind.

There is certainly a cultural component to the virtues, in that some cultures values certain virtues above others. Yet, there is a sort of natural law of virtue, I think, in that certain characteristics are considered virtues in most cultures. Bravery for example.

With honor in particular, I think its expression is very much culturally influenced. At the time when the US was founded, if you publically insulted a man, his honor would demand that he call you our for a duel. Your honor would require that you accept. We lost a Vice President that way. It was about honor. Both were honorable men. A man of honor will not allow his honor to be insulted or besmirched. As our culture changed, duelling was outlawed because it was costing the lives of some of our best and most honorable men.

Yet, in certain parts of the world, for instance in the Muslim Middle East, people are still killed over questions involving honor. If the bedsheets are not stained with blood on the wedding night, it is a question of honor. If an uncle was killed by a rival clan, the nephew must avenge it as a matter of honor. And most recently, anti-American jihadists have been able to inflame societies by using videos and cartoons insulting the prophet Mohammed by appealing to their loyalty to the honor of Muhammed.

So, honor is important, but it seems to me it is a double edged sword. Teamed up with humility, charity, kindness and mercy, honor is a wonderful quality. On its own however, it can go any number of ways.

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: I guess I am being abstruse instead of clear. Let me try it this way. Virtues are desire...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



I guess I am being abstruse instead of clear. Let me try it this way. Virtues are desireable qualities in a person's character. Some are inborn, but others can be learned. There are many virtues, such as kindness, humility, honesty, thriftiness, diligence, faithfulness, perseverence, loyalty, courteousness, bravery, reverence, etc. Because one has one virtue, does not imply one has them all. A person who is honorable, will have honesty: his word is his bond, but this doesn't imply he is also thrifty or kind.

There is certainly a cultural component to the virtues, in that some cultures values certain virtues above others. Yet, there is a sort of natural law of virtue, I think, in that certain characteristics are considered virtues in most cultures. Bravery for example.

With honor in particular, I think its expression is very much culturally influenced. At the time when the US was founded, if you publically insulted a man, his honor would demand that he call you our for a duel. Your honor would require that you accept. We lost a Vice President that way. It was about honor. Both were honorable men. A man of honor will not allow his honor to be insulted or besmirched. As our culture changed, duelling was outlawed because it was costing the lives of some of our best and most honorable men.

Yet, in certain parts of the world, for instance in the Muslim Middle East, people are still killed over questions involving honor. If the bedsheets are not stained with blood on the wedding night, it is a question of honor. If an uncle was killed by a rival clan, the nephew must avenge it as a matter of honor. And most recently, anti-American jihadists have been able to inflame societies by using videos and cartoons insulting the prophet Mohammed by appealing to their loyalty to the honor of Muhammed.

So, honor is important, but it seems to me it is a double edged sword. Teamed up with humility, charity, kindness and mercy, honor is a wonderful quality. On its own however, it can go any number of ways.

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I think that the definition of honor for most people today has been watered down from how you describe it here. Thanks for explaining this by the way. It does seem you are describing a cultural take on the idea of honor, more than a watered down bleached out honor we might think of today in America. However it occurs to me that we think of our military personnel as having honor and that seems to be the best manifestation of at least something like corporal honor that comes to mind. Are we talking about the same thing yet? I am drugged up on cold medicine at this time..

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: I think that the definition of honor for most people today has been watered down from how...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:



I think that the definition of honor for most people today has been watered down from how you describe it here. Thanks for explaining this by the way. It does seem you are describing a cultural take on the idea of honor, more than a watered down bleached out honor we might think of today in America. However it occurs to me that we think of our military personnel as having honor and that seems to be the best manifestation of at least something like corporal honor that comes to mind. Are we talking about the same thing yet? I am drugged up on cold medicine at this time..

--hide--


That's OK. I'm sipping a glass of wine now, so will be as fuzzy as you with your cold medicine soon. How did Winnie write all those marvelous tomes, govern Britain, and fight a world war while constantly sipping brandy...I have no idea!

Honor is a very important virtue for a military person to cultivate, and for a military unit too.

Really, honor means your reputation. Honor is all about your reputation. The reason a man of honor would not lie, is that if the lie were found out his reputation would be hurt, and honor is ALL about your reputation.

Honor is also about glory. It is about the glory you have won to exalt your reputation. You win this glory as a military person by winning battles and by exhibiting other virtues thought important by the military, such as bravery, loyalty, obedience, etc. But the reputation part of it is what leads to the honor.

Integrity is related but a little different. Integrity means what you say and what you do are the same, both when seen and when not seen. Integrity means there aren't two sets of behaviors, but one integrated whole that always acts the same. The opposite is disintegrated which means the components are flying apart: saying this and doing that...like a lot of politicians we know. The opposite of integrity is two faced, or speaking with forked tongue as the Indians would say. (Amazing so many of them have their Faith after the lack of integrity shown by their Caucasian conquerors. But I digress.)

A person of integrity could be evil, as long as he says he will do evil and then does it as he said. So integrity is another virtue that is important but insufficient to make a good man.

Integrity is important to a man of honor, because his honor, or reputation, would be hurt if it were discovered he had said one thing but done another. So a man of honor will cultivate integrity. But the honor part is about glory and reputation. The integrity part is about consistency.

One last thought. The Christian who truly cultivates honor and integrity believes that it is our reputation and consistency before God that is paramount. So, if he is well with God, then he can tolerate the slights or misunderstandings of the philistine mortals to some degree. True honor is our reputation with our Creator. True integrity is being honest and consistent before His all seeing eyes. Just to complicate matters a little. :-)
For a nice play on this subtlety of honor, may I suggest "A Man for All Season" by Bolt. Thomas Moore lost his honor before his king, but retained it before God. His dying words were, "I die the king's loyal servant, but God's first."

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: That's OK. I'm sipping a glass of wine now, so will be as fuzzy as you with your...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



That's OK. I'm sipping a glass of wine now, so will be as fuzzy as you with your cold medicine soon. How did Winnie write all those marvelous tomes, govern Britain, and fight a world war while constantly sipping brandy...I have no idea!

Honor is a very important virtue for a military person to cultivate, and for a military unit too.

Really, honor means your reputation. Honor is all about your reputation. The reason a man of honor would not lie, is that if the lie were found out his reputation would be hurt, and honor is ALL about your reputation.

Honor is also about glory. It is about the glory you have won to exalt your reputation. You win this glory as a military person by winning battles and by exhibiting other virtues thought important by the military, such as bravery, loyalty, obedience, etc. But the reputation part of it is what leads to the honor.

Integrity is related but a little different. Integrity means what you say and what you do are the same, both when seen and when not seen. Integrity means there aren't two sets of behaviors, but one integrated whole that always acts the same. The opposite is disintegrated which means the components are flying apart: saying this and doing that...like a lot of politicians we know. The opposite of integrity is two faced, or speaking with forked tongue as the Indians would say. (Amazing so many of them have their Faith after the lack of integrity shown by their Caucasian conquerors. But I digress.)

A person of integrity could be evil, as long as he says he will do evil and then does it as he said. So integrity is another virtue that is important but insufficient to make a good man.

Integrity is important to a man of honor, because his honor, or reputation, would be hurt if it were discovered he had said one thing but done another. So a man of honor will cultivate integrity. But the honor part is about glory and reputation. The integrity part is about consistency.

One last thought. The Christian who truly cultivates honor and integrity believes that it is our reputation and consistency before God that is paramount. So, if he is well with God, then he can tolerate the slights or misunderstandings of the philistine mortals to some degree. True honor is our reputation with our Creator. True integrity is being honest and consistent before His all seeing eyes. Just to complicate matters a little. :-)
For a nice play on this subtlety of honor, may I suggest "A Man for All Season" by Bolt. Thomas Moore lost his honor before his king, but retained it before God. His dying words were, "I die the king's loyal servant, but God's first."

--hide--


I recently last May, borrowed watched the 1966 film version of the movie and thought it was excellent. St Thomas More is one of my favorite saints. It was the first time I had seen it- unless my parents took us to that one when we were small. Years back I rented the newer one and it was OK..
In my use of integrity I think of a person who is integrated and who is the same person as you say, in all facets of his or her life. The disintegrated personality is one in which different parts of the person are split off. One part does not know what the other part is doing. So integrity suggests wholeness to me and consistency.

Honor is well explained when you explain reputation. I also understand your explanation of the person who wants to maintain honor in his or her reputation with God.

Actually I think the word reputation has been watered down too. The phrase, "The (person) man (or woman) of ill repute" used to mean more than it does today because the societal norms have changed quite a bit.

I think that somehow these words are both used less often and differently in this day and age.
Doesn't it seem like these words have been watered down to have less meaning?

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: I recently last May, borrowed watched the 1966 film version of the movie and thought it w...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:



I recently last May, borrowed watched the 1966 film version of the movie and thought it was excellent. St Thomas More is one of my favorite saints. It was the first time I had seen it- unless my parents took us to that one when we were small. Years back I rented the newer one and it was OK..
In my use of integrity I think of a person who is integrated and who is the same person as you say, in all facets of his or her life. The disintegrated personality is one in which different parts of the person are split off. One part does not know what the other part is doing. So integrity suggests wholeness to me and consistency.

Honor is well explained when you explain reputation. I also understand your explanation of the person who wants to maintain honor in his or her reputation with God.

Actually I think the word reputation has been watered down too. The phrase, "The (person) man (or woman) of ill repute" used to mean more than it does today because the societal norms have changed quite a bit.

I think that somehow these words are both used less often and differently in this day and age.
Doesn't it seem like these words have been watered down to have less meaning?

--hide--


Yes, I totally agree with you. That is why I have taken the effort to try to define them precisely and correctly, so that we can re-capture the meaning and subtlety in the language that is being lost because ....because... why is it exactly that we are losing it?

Perhaps we are losing our language to discuss virtue, because virtue is no longer discussed in schools as it once was. It used to be thought that the purpose of schools, public schools, was to produce virtuous citizens. Therefore, virtue was discussed, inculcated, sought after. Now, it seems, (NEA) teachers are afraid to discuss it as it might be interpreted as religion, and of course we can't have any God stuff in the public schools now; heaven forbid we asked our students to be virtuous! Whose virtue? Whose God? Even in many Catholic schools, students haven't been taught about virtue. Even the Pagan Romans taught virtue!!! This is why we are becoming a second world country...this is it right here....the kernal! The nut!

09/28/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: (Quote) Marian-83994 said: I recently last May, borrowed watched ...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:

Quote:
Marian-83994 said:



I recently last May, borrowed watched the 1966 film version of the movie and thought it was excellent. St Thomas More is one of my favorite saints. It was the first time I had seen it- unless my parents took us to that one when we were small. Years back I rented the newer one and it was OK..
In my use of integrity I think of a person who is integrated and who is the same person as you say, in all facets of his or her life. The disintegrated personality is one in which different parts of the person are split off. One part does not know what the other part is doing. So integrity suggests wholeness to me and consistency.

Honor is well explained when you explain reputation. I also understand your explanation of the person who wants to maintain honor in his or her reputation with God.

Actually I think the word reputation has been watered down too. The phrase, "The (person) man (or woman) of ill repute" used to mean more than it does today because the societal norms have changed quite a bit.

I think that somehow these words are both used less often and differently in this day and age.
Doesn't it seem like these words have been watered down to have less meaning?




Yes, I totally agree with you. That is why I have taken the effort to try to define them precisely and correctly, so that we can re-capture the meaning and subtlety in the language that is being lost because ....because... why is it exactly that we are losing it?

Perhaps we are losing our language to discuss virtue, because virtue is no longer discussed in schools as it once was. It used to be thought that the purpose of schools, public schools, was to produce virtuous citizens. Therefore, virtue was discussed, inculcated, sought after. Now, it seems, (NEA) teachers are afraid to discuss it as it might be interpreted as religion, and of course we can't have any God stuff in the public schools now; heaven forbid we asked our students to be virtuous! Whose virtue? Whose God? Even in many Catholic schools, students haven't been taught about virtue. Even the Pagan Romans taught virtue!!! This is why we are becoming a second world country...this is it right here....the kernal! The nut!

--hide--


Yes they are probably afraid to teach virtue to some extent but I have been seeing some schools rolling out monthly qualities the students are supposed to focus on! I have been impressed. This may be focused in this area of California- I don't know....

I agree with you that teachers are afraid to speak of religion--I would guess that it depends on which part of Californiafor example, one resides in. I live in a very conservative community. When I go out and teach I see which children come from more traditional homes. We have many many immigrants here and this influences the teaching of and the recognition of values.

The secularization of society has broken things down, and this is why teachers might be afraid. But it can be done with subtlety and can be done through modeling good values. Teachers can even talk about good values in one way or another as can social workers...

The push for a secularized society seems to have become so deeply intense since the 60's but so much worse since 1980. For example in the 80's you would still be able to possibly treat mental illness in some instances through noting the potential that the person had a spiritual problem while now, that "experiment" might have to go off the record or not be tried at all. We still recognize spirituality through AA for example and this is a STRONG movement... now I am off track, maybe


Also in the local public schools, there is a new push to recognize values but it is coming under the idea of making pledges and reciting rules on a daily basis which I think WILL help the children. MANY children K-8 are daily pledging to graduate from high school in the year that they are supposed to graduate, and pledging to go to college. It is part of what they recite after the pledge of allegiance. I think educators have realized that they have failed big time in steering children and students in the right direction.

However,
I happen to know from my own study that Obama defunded abstinence programs. And that he has funded Planned Parenthood and Family Planning programs.
That is a whole other topic too....

I am actually reading Christopher Dawson's book called the Dividing of Christendom right now which also talks about how these societal movements came about.

09/28/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Yes, I totally agree with you. That is why I have taken the effort to try to define them...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Yes, I totally agree with you. That is why I have taken the effort to try to define them precisely and correctly, so that we can re-capture the meaning and subtlety in the language that is being lost because ....because... why is it exactly that we are losing it?

Perhaps we are losing our language to discuss virtue, because virtue is no longer discussed in schools as it once was. It used to be thought that the purpose of schools, public schools, was to produce virtuous citizens. Therefore, virtue was discussed, inculcated, sought after. Now, it seems, (NEA) teachers are afraid to discuss it as it might be interpreted as religion, and of course we can't have any God stuff in the public schools now; heaven forbid we asked our students to be virtuous! Whose virtue? Whose God? Even in many Catholic schools, students haven't been taught about virtue. Even the Pagan Romans taught virtue!!! This is why we are becoming a second world country...this is it right here....the kernal! The nut!

--hide--


There is a conscious effort to have anti bullying programs every where right now--which is very good.

Look at this article and see how hungry people are for finding meaning in their lives...



shine.yahoo.com

09/28/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: Thank you Ray for your post here. I appreciate it!
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:




Thank you Ray for your post here. I appreciate it!

--hide--
As always, you're very welcome, Marian. hug

09/28/2012 new

HE IS A GOOD MAN

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