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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Oct 15th 2012 new
With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe that the political reality is much more complex. I don't believe that voting for one side means being on the side of good, and voting for the other side being on the side of evil.

And for the record, I do not disagree with the church's position on abortion. But if Mitt Romney is sworn in as president in January 2013, abortion will not end overnight. So it is just not true that the lives of millions of unborn children hinges on voting against Obama. Romney is someone who has changed his political views so many times, it is impossible to know what he really believes or would do as president. But let's assume that he will try to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade. He may or may not get to appoint Supreme Court justices, depending on deaths and retirements of the sitting justices If he does, the people he appoints may or may not vote to overturn Roe versus Wade, no matter what Romney believed when he appointed them. If Roe vs. Wade gets overturned, the question of the legality of abortion would be left up to individual states. Some states would outlaw it, others would not. Women with more resources could travel to the states that allow it, just like before Roe v. Wade. So many abortions would still take place.

Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade.

Far FEWER abortions would take place if we have a system of affordable health care and so couples who do not follow Catholic teaching (and never will no matter who is elected or whether the HHS mandate is upheld or withdrawn) have access to contraception. I do not want to live in a society where any church would attempt to outlaw contraception for couples who do not share the same views. The church's teaching on contraception is beautiful, but I don't support mandating it on all of society. And if that were to happen, it would surely lead to MORE abortion, which I think most of us would agree would be a terrible thing.

I fundamentally disagree that this election is a simple matter of black and white. And I'm not even touching the social justice, environmental, and the dignity and rights of worker issues that are also at stake in this election.

You may think I am misguided, and feel free to pray for my soul (I need all of the help I can get!). But I hope that we can all be way more civil on these forums in the future, and respect the right of each person to educate himself or herself and vote his or her conscience.
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Oct 15th 2012 new

One candidate CANNOT be the lesser of two evils if that candidate supports abortion in almost every case and any other candidate either doesn't support abortion at all, or supports it to any lesser degree or in less circumstances (than the first candidate). Abortion is one of those issues that the Catholic Church has time-and-time again said is non-negothiable. I would suggest that anyone who has come to the conclusion that the most pro-abortion candidate is the lesser of two evils has very seriously misunderstood the bishops' statements and the teaching of the Catholic Church.


Ed

LOCKED
Oct 15th 2012 new

That's much too smart a post to be at CM, Shannan. wink

(FTR, abortion is horrible, and I hope it is outlawed. But it is not an electoral issue, for the reasons Shannan states.)

LOCKED
Oct 15th 2012 new
The social issues "Catholics" are going to vote for the world view definition of social justice (as Obama defines it), and not for pro-life candidates. To them, saving the forests and the spotted owl is more important than saving a human life.

In reality, there is no higher order issue than human life. Yes, human life is a higher order issue than any other creature because mankind is created in God's image and likeness with a soul, i.e., free will and intellect, though you would hardly know some people had any intellect to not see through all the lies and deceit in politics today.

If you vote for a pro-human death candidate over any other pro-life candidate, you will answer for it in the next life. You are only kidding yourself if you twist any bishop's statements to coincide with a viewpoint that allows for voting for a pro-death candidate, when pro-life candidates are on the same ballot. This is clearly the case with the presidential election.

Note, I am not judging you, only pointing out that you will be judged in the next life for it, but not by me. This is what the American bishops should be telling American Catholics.

.

.
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Oct 15th 2012 new
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe th...
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe that the political reality is much more complex. I don't believe that voting for one side means being on the side of good, and voting for the other side being on the side of evil.



And for the record, I do not disagree with the church's position on abortion. But if Mitt Romney is sworn in as president in January 2013, abortion will not end overnight. So it is just not true that the lives of millions of unborn children hinges on voting against Obama. Romney is someone who has changed his political views so many times, it is impossible to know what he really believes or would do as president. But let's assume that he will try to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade. He may or may not get to appoint Supreme Court justices, depending on deaths and retirements of the sitting justices If he does, the people he appoints may or may not vote to overturn Roe versus Wade, no matter what Romney believed when he appointed them. If Roe vs. Wade gets overturned, the question of the legality of abortion would be left up to individual states. Some states would outlaw it, others would not. Women with more resources could travel to the states that allow it, just like before Roe v. Wade. So many abortions would still take place.



Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade.



Far FEWER abortions would take place if we have a system of affordable health care and so couples who do not follow Catholic teaching (and never will no matter who is elected or whether the HHS mandate is upheld or withdrawn) have access to contraception. I do not want to live in a society where any church would attempt to outlaw contraception for couples who do not share the same views. The church's teaching on contraception is beautiful, but I don't support mandating it on all of society. And if that were to happen, it would surely lead to MORE abortion, which I think most of us would agree would be a terrible thing.



I fundamentally disagree that this election is a simple matter of black and white. And I'm not even touching the social justice, environmental, and the dignity and rights of worker issues that are also at stake in this election.



You may think I am misguided, and feel free to pray for my soul (I need all of the help I can get!). But I hope that we can all be way more civil on these forums in the future, and respect the right of each person to educate himself or herself and vote his or her conscience.
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LOCKED
Oct 15th 2012 new
Gerald, you may not realize this, but Catholic social teaching strongly supports the rights of workers to organize and form unions.
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Oct 15th 2012 new
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe th...
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe that the political reality is much more complex. I don't believe that voting for one side means being on the side of good, and voting for the other side being on the side of evil.



And for the record, I do not disagree with the church's position on abortion. But if Mitt Romney is sworn in as president in January 2013, abortion will not end overnight. So it is just not true that the lives of millions of unborn children hinges on voting against Obama. Romney is someone who has changed his political views so many times, it is impossible to know what he really believes or would do as president. But let's assume that he will try to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade. He may or may not get to appoint Supreme Court justices, depending on deaths and retirements of the sitting justices If he does, the people he appoints may or may not vote to overturn Roe versus Wade, no matter what Romney believed when he appointed them. If Roe vs. Wade gets overturned, the question of the legality of abortion would be left up to individual states. Some states would outlaw it, others would not. Women with more resources could travel to the states that allow it, just like before Roe v. Wade. So many abortions would still take place.



Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade.



Far FEWER abortions would take place if we have a system of affordable health care and so couples who do not follow Catholic teaching (and never will no matter who is elected or whether the HHS mandate is upheld or withdrawn) have access to contraception. I do not want to live in a society where any church would attempt to outlaw contraception for couples who do not share the same views. The church's teaching on contraception is beautiful, but I don't support mandating it on all of society. And if that were to happen, it would surely lead to MORE abortion, which I think most of us would agree would be a terrible thing.



I fundamentally disagree that this election is a simple matter of black and white. And I'm not even touching the social justice, environmental, and the dignity and rights of worker issues that are also at stake in this election.



You may think I am misguided, and feel free to pray for my soul (I need all of the help I can get!). But I hope that we can all be way more civil on these forums in the future, and respect the right of each person to educate himself or herself and vote his or her conscience.
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There have been more than 50 million legal (but not in Gods eyes) abortions in America since 1973. Even when abortion was illegal, there was no possible way there were that many abortions. America has bought in to the new age, and has lost its morailty and Christian value system and has become godless, or rather, they have become gods to themselves, determining at once and for all who will live and who will die while yet in their mother's womb.

Tragedy! And God will not stay His hand when the blood of 50 million innocents cries to Him from the ground.
LOCKED
Oct 15th 2012 new

Wonderful post Shannon. It is refreshing to read.

Having, in my time on CM, seen references to specific canditdates, their supporters, and myself as not being "really" Catholic or "less Catholic" than someone just because of my political oppinion. I must say it is good to see the Church's view on politics and elections presented so elloquently in the spirit of unity and not division.

*applauds*

Now brace yourself for the back lash!

p.s. Cathy, this is sooo going to slingshot the topic to 200 posts!

LOCKED
Oct 15th 2012 new
Hi Jim, it is true that we will all have to account for our lives and choices one day. That is why we must be free to act in accordance with our consciences.

The social justice issues I was referring to are the CHURCH's social justice teachings.

I have felt compelled to speak up for those with a different point of view who are being villified as evil personified. But I'm going to bow out now, because I can't spend all day on these forums!

Have a great day, everyone!
LOCKED
Oct 15th 2012 new
(Quote) ED-20630 said: One candidate CANNOT be the lesser of two evils if that candidate supports abortion in almost ever...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

One candidate CANNOT be the lesser of two evils if that candidate supports abortion in almost every case and any other candidate either doesn't support abortion at all, or supports it to any lesser degree or in less circumstances (than the first candidate). Abortion is one of those issues that the Catholic Church has time-and-time again said is non-negothiable. I would suggest that anyone who has come to the conclusion that the most pro-abortion candidate is the lesser of two evils has very seriously misunderstood the bishops' statements and the teaching of the Catholic Church.




Ed

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Thank you, Ed!

Obama's God-forsaken Pro-abortion Record. (Printed out, this incomplete bullet point list is 13+ pages...and it only covers Nov. 5, 2008, to Sept. 7, 2012.) www.lifenews.com

And Obama against giving medical care to babies born alive from "botched" abortions is barbaric and uncivilized...

"In 2001, then IL state Sen. Barack Obama for the 2nd year in a row was the sole senator opposing Born Alive Infant Bill" www.youtube.com
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