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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Oct 15th 2012 new

I will only comment on one issue contained in your statement. It is not a political, so is not aimed at either candidate. In your second paragraph you state, "Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade. "

Unfortunately the dire consequences you predict, except for the seeking of back alley abortions and possibly the do it yourself variety, are happening today with perfectly legal abortions, probably at almost the same rate as they occur when a back alley abortion is obtained.

I would also point out, that your same argument can be applied to justify other crimes being made legal; i.e. prostitution, gambling, cock fighting, etc.. We may as well legalize them since people will engage in those activities anyway. It doesn't fly.

A society for good or ill creates an ethos for itself. Part of the "revoluition" of the 1960's was a revolt against the hypocrisy that exists in every society everywhere and at every time. American society had a moral ethos, admittedly one that was often observed in its violation then in its adhering to. But it was a standard to which people could strive for and actions judged against.

If the revvolt had only been against hypocrisy or the excesses, things might have turned out well. Instead the revolt was against societal standards with the attended demand they be done away with. And that is what we have today, Not only an American Society, but a world wide society with no standards except what an individual thinks feels good for them. A world wide society that has adopted the evil actions that some engaged in hypocritically as the positive standard by which our actions and beliefs are to be judged. If we don't accept evil as a good then we are societies outcasts.

(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but b...
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe that the political reality is much more complex. I don't believe that voting for one side means being on the side of good, and voting for the other side being on the side of evil.

And for the record, I do not disagree with the church's position on abortion. But if Mitt Romney is sworn in as president in January 2013, abortion will not end overnight. So it is just not true that the lives of millions of unborn children hinges on voting against Obama. Romney is someone who has changed his political views so many times, it is impossible to know what he really believes or would do as president. But let's assume that he will try to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade. He may or may not get to appoint Supreme Court justices, depending on deaths and retirements of the sitting justices If he does, the people he appoints may or may not vote to overturn Roe versus Wade, no matter what Romney believed when he appointed them. If Roe vs. Wade gets overturned, the question of the legality of abortion would be left up to individual states. Some states would outlaw it, others would not. Women with more resources could travel to the states that allow it, just like before Roe v. Wade. So many abortions would still take place.

Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade.

Far FEWER abortions would take place if we have a system of affordable health care and so couples who do not follow Catholic teaching (and never will no matter who is elected or whether the HHS mandate is upheld or withdrawn) have access to contraception. I do not want to live in a society where any church would attempt to outlaw contraception for couples who do not share the same views. The church's teaching on contraception is beautiful, but I don't support mandating it on all of society. And if that were to happen, it would surely lead to MORE abortion, which I think most of us would agree would be a terrible thing.

I fundamentally disagree that this election is a simple matter of black and white. And I'm not even touching the social justice, environmental, and the dignity and rights of worker issues that are also at stake in this election.

You may think I am misguided, and feel free to pray for my soul (I need all of the help I can get!). But I hope that we can all be way more civil on these forums in the future, and respect the right of each person to educate himself or herself and vote his or her conscience.
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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I will only comment on one issue contained in your statement. It is not a political, so is not aim...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I will only comment on one issue contained in your statement. It is not a political, so is not aimed at either candidate. In your second paragraph you state, "Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade. "

Unfortunately the dire consequences you predict, except for the seeking of back alley abortions and possibly the do it yourself variety, are happening today with perfectly legal abortions, probably at almost the same rate as they occur when a back alley abortion is obtained.

I would also point out, that your same argument can be applied to justify other crimes being made legal; i.e. prostitution, gambling, cock fighting, etc.. We may as well legalize them since people will engage in those activities anyway. It doesn't fly.

A society for good or ill creates an ethos for itself. Part of the "revoluition" of the 1960's was a revolt against the hypocrisy that exists in every society everywhere and at every time. American society had a moral ethos, admittedly one that was often observed in its violation then in its adhering to. But it was a standard to which people could strive for and actions judged against.

If the revvolt had only been against hypocrisy or the excesses, things might have turned out well. Instead the revolt was against societal standards with the attended demand they be done away with. And that is what we have today, Not only an American Society, but a world wide society with no standards except what an individual thinks feels good for them. A world wide society that has adopted the evil actions that some engaged in hypocritically as the positive standard by which our actions and beliefs are to be judged. If we don't accept evil as a good then we are societies outcasts.

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Very well said.

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Victor-544727 said: The Mexico City Policy has never been a act of legislature, but one by Exe...
(Quote) Victor-544727 said:


The Mexico City Policy has never been a act of legislature, but one by Executive Order. President Bush used an Executive Order to execute the ban and Obama subsequently rescinded President Bush's order with one of his own. Under a Romney administration and a Republican majority in both chambers of Congress, it would likely become law.


May on the side of having the same access to abortion as they have to an OnDemand movie are crying that Romney will seek to have Roe v. Wade overturned through his likely appointees to the Supreme Court. There is good reason to believe that is true. However, what the pro-abortion crowd is intentionally omitting from their argument is that a Supreme Court overturn of Roe v. Wade would only rescind the legal protections affordede by the federal law, not the legality of the medical procedure. Rescinding the federal law only takes the federal government out of the abortion business and restores the jurisdiction and enforcement of the law to the states, where it had been prior to Roe v. Wade and where it has always belonged. Obviously, the Planned Parenthood crowd wants no part in this because no federal law equals no federal dollars.

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Victor, I have been getting email form legislators, that if the republicans get control of all branches government. They will try to amend the constitution to state that life begins at conception to natural death. That would change abortion as we know it, without and executive order or a Judge appointment. Sort of a back door way getting it done. I hope to God it works??? What do you think???

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: Victor, I have been getting email form legislators, that if the republicans get control of all b...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

Victor, I have been getting email form legislators, that if the republicans get control of all branches government. They will try to amend the constitution to state that life begins at conception to natural death. That would change abortion as we know it, without and executive order or a Judge appointment. Sort of a back door way getting it done. I hope to God it works??? What do you think???

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If the Republicans take control of both chambers of Congress they will likely take this action regardless of who occupies the White House for the next term, much like Congress forced Clinton into Welfare Reform. Absent of that scenario, it won't happen because a constitutional ammendment requires a two-thirds majority vote in both chambers of Congress as well as the approval of three-fourth of the states before it can be ratified. Even if it were to pass through Congess the likelihood of 38 Governors approving a constitutional ammendment that would supercede the sovereignty of their respective state constitutions is very unlikely.

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: Victor, I have been getting email form legislators, that if the republicans get control of all b...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

Victor, I have been getting email form legislators, that if the republicans get control of all branches government. They will try to amend the constitution to state that life begins at conception to natural death. That would change abortion as we know it, without and executive order or a Judge appointment. Sort of a back door way getting it done. I hope to God it works??? What do you think???

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So would a human chimera be two individuals?

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Victor-544727 said: (Quote) Thomas-699657 said: Victor, I have been getting email form legisl...
(Quote) Victor-544727 said:

Quote:
Thomas-699657 said:

Victor, I have been getting email form legislators, that if the republicans get control of all branches government. They will try to amend the constitution to state that life begins at conception to natural death. That would change abortion as we know it, without and executive order or a Judge appointment. Sort of a back door way getting it done. I hope to God it works??? What do you think???


If the Republicans take control of both chambers of Congress they will likely take this action regardless of who occupies the White House for the next term, much like Congress forced Clinton into Welfare Reform. Absent of that scenario, it won't happen because a constitutional ammendment requires a two-thirds majority vote in both chambers of Congress as well as the approval of three-fourth of the states before it can be ratified. Even if it were to pass through Congess the likelihood of 38 Governors approving a constitutional ammendment that would supercede the sovereignty of their respective state constitutions is very unlikely.

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That is also the reason this proposal is being pushed by candidates for the legislature and not the Romney campaign. This isn't even on Romney's platform, although Ryan personally desires and would fully endorse such an action.


theheart

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Clarence-698070 said: So would a human chimera be two individuals?
(Quote) Clarence-698070 said:

So would a human chimera be two individuals?

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Watch the video and learn about your Catholic faith. Instead of playing games, you might learn something you don't know yet. www.youtube.com



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Oct 15th 2012 new
(Quote) Tom-169708 said: I don't think it's vitriol being spewed. I think most of the comments ...........
(Quote) Tom-169708 said:




I don't think it's vitriol being spewed. I think most of the comments ...........

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Tom, don't you know by now? Anything said that doesn't march in step with liberalism IS vitriol.
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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Laura-56149 said: Interesting that we can spend on phones when there are people hungry and we are trilli...
(Quote) Laura-56149 said:




Interesting that we can spend on phones when there are people hungry and we are trillions in debt....WOW it makes my head spin!

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What also makes your head spin is the notion, supported by many liberal "Catholics for Obama", that the government can force everyone but the clerics to buy goods that violate their conscience, and only if the clerical organization are considered (and as long as they are so considered) "catholic" enough to merit the exemption.

This divides what is "the church" into certain exempt institutions, where, according to the Second Vatican council, both clergy and laity are part of "the Church," which merit freedom to live thier faith in the course of their lives. It is also very ironic, and coming from the same liberals that used to shout "We are Church" in support of their favored (and often, as Mark Shea notes, pelvic) heresies, hypocritical.

When push came to shove, they prefer their favorite sins they are enslaved to to the Church that whose Truth alone sets men free.

spectator.org

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: Watch the video and learn about your Catholic faith. Instead of playing games, you might learn s...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

Watch the video and learn about your Catholic faith. Instead of playing games, you might learn something you don't know yet. www.youtube.com


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Yeah I dont have an hour to watch that. How about you tell me where it answers my question?

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