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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: I thought my response was going to come right under the way that I found to be most objectionable. It ...
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: I thought my response was going to come right under the way that I found to be most objectionable. It didn't! But please people, let's be kind and Christian toward our fellow CMers, no matter what their political point of view. Neither candidate is perfect or completely objectionable from a Catholic teaching point of view.
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Shannan, If you click the "Reply and Quote" it will print the post your responding to and help readers see which post your referring to. Have a Great Day!

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I will only comment on one issue contained in your statement. It is not a political, so is not aim...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I will only comment on one issue contained in your statement. It is not a political, so is not aimed at either candidate. In your second paragraph you state, "Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade. "

Unfortunately the dire consequences you predict, except for the seeking of back alley abortions and possibly the do it yourself variety, are happening today with perfectly legal abortions, probably at almost the same rate as they occur when a back alley abortion is obtained.

I would also point out, that your same argument can be applied to justify other crimes being made legal; i.e. prostitution, gambling, cock fighting, etc.. We may as well legalize them since people will engage in those activities anyway. It doesn't fly.

A society for good or ill creates an ethos for itself. Part of the "revoluition" of the 1960's was a revolt against the hypocrisy that exists in every society everywhere and at every time. American society had a moral ethos, admittedly one that was often observed in its violation then in its adhering to. But it was a standard to which people could strive for and actions judged against.

If the revvolt had only been against hypocrisy or the excesses, things might have turned out well. Instead the revolt was against societal standards with the attended demand they be done away with. And that is what we have today, Not only an American Society, but a world wide society with no standards except what an individual thinks feels good for them. A world wide society that has adopted the evil actions that some engaged in hypocritically as the positive standard by which our actions and beliefs are to be judged. If we don't accept evil as a good then we are societies outcasts.

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Paul, I did not read Shannan post in that way. People on here seem so abortion centric. If people really want to stop abortion, they need to be 7/7 and not have premarital sex/ sex without openness for life. Abortions will happen regardless of legality. People need to INSPIRE women to keep their babies...and inspire young men/men to be abstinent. 50% of the women having abortions were on contraceptives, by planned parenthood statistics. Men who are anti-abortion but have sex out of marriage are an accomplice to murder if that women goes to have an abortion. It is very easy to have an abortion...eating lots of green papaya, taking a bunch of birth control pills, falling down the stairs...it's gonna happen regardless of the laws.
I am voting my conscience. I will vote looking at the whole picture...I will vote pro-life based on military, environmental and other issues. All these past republican presidents just PO the rest of the world...I will vote for the one who I don't think will get us into a nuclear war that will obliterate 4.7 billion people...not just the 230 exterminated since Roe v. Wade. Inspire change, don't legislate it! :o)

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Clarence-698070 said: Yeah I dont have an hour to watch that. How about you tell me where it answe...
(Quote) Clarence-698070 said:

Yeah I dont have an hour to watch that. How about you tell me where it answers my question?

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Just as I thought??? Well I can't make you drink ??? I can only lead to the water.

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Edward-512961 said: Tom, don't you know by now? Anything said that doesn't march in step with liberalism IS...
(Quote) Edward-512961 said:

Tom, don't you know by now? Anything said that doesn't march in step with liberalism IS vitriol.
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You are right Edward, but you have to still try??? Maybe something will break through???

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Sara-598052 said: (Quote) Shannan-733493 said: To clarify--I am referring to a previous post that ca...
(Quote) Sara-598052 said:

Quote:
Shannan-733493 said: To clarify--I am referring to a previous post that called the woman who started this thread ugly and at worst evil for supporting a different political candidate than she. I find that to be completely inappropriate for a Christian website.

My diocese fully supports people informing themselves on the candidates and voting their consciences. I listened to Cardinal Dolan say the same thing on the radio the other day. There is not only one choice for Catholics. You may disagree but it is really disturbing to see the vitriol spewed here against people who support the democratic ticket.


thank you.

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Sara, you are young and I would hate for you to be misled by rogue Catholics who are out and out refusing to listen to the church thus causing scandal and supporting intrinsic evil. I posted so many articles on the other thread

www.catholicmatch.com


about what the Church is saying...the bishops are UNITED on the fact that we cannot support the HHS mandate (thus anyone who supports it) or a platform that promotes intrinsic evil meaning abortion....Obama in an unprecedented attack against the Church has attacked our religious freedom and is trying to force us to pay for someone's abortions while promoting more himself. His first week in office he repealed Bush's executive order not to send our tax dollars overseas for abortions....seriously we are already SO in debt and this is where are tax dollars are going. Now, he wants to further fund planned parenthood....I mean I could go on and on...but the point is our Church is SUING this administration....it couldn't be ANY clearer about its stance...and people twisting it on here.....not OK.

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Laura-695247 said:Paul, I did not read Shannan post in that way. People on here seem so abortion centric. If people rea...
(Quote) Laura-695247 said:
Paul, I did not read Shannan post in that way. People on here seem so abortion centric. If people really want to stop abortion, they need to be 7/7 and not have premarital sex/ sex without openness for life. Abortions will happen regardless of legality. People need to INSPIRE women to keep their babies...and inspire young men/men to be abstinent. 50% of the women having abortions were on contraceptives, by planned parenthood statistics. Men who are anti-abortion but have sex out of marriage are an accomplice to murder if that women goes to have an abortion. It is very easy to have an abortion...eating lots of green papaya, taking a bunch of birth control pills, falling down the stairs...it's gonna happen regardless of the laws.
I am voting my conscience. I will vote looking at the whole picture...I will vote pro-life based on military, environmental and other issues. All these past republican presidents just PO the rest of the world...I will vote for the one who I don't think will get us into a nuclear war that will obliterate 4.7 billion people...not just the 230 exterminated since Roe v. Wade. Inspire change, don't legislate it! :o)

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People here are abortion centric for the simple reason that the Church is. As Pope John Paul II stated unambiguously, without the right to life ALL other rights are meaningless.

And the Bishops have also spoken to the point in no uncertain terms; a person professing themselves to be Catholic CANNOT vote for ANY Candidate who both supports, promotes and works on behalf of Abortion, Contraception, fetal stem cell research, so called same sex marriage or any of the other NON-NEGOTIABLES because doing so makes that voter an active participant in evil, thereby endangering their immortal soul.

As sated, that leaves no room for any other consideration.

Men who are anti abortion and have sex outside of marriage have committed a grave evil. But they can only be guilty of being an accomplice to the murder of the child if the women has an abortion if they actively participate in her having that abortion. Yes, many men are; they insist the women have the abortion, drive them there etc. But there are also many who are never aware that the women was pregnant and never had a say one way or another on the question of the abortion and those just cannot be considered accomplices of the abortion.

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: (Quote) Sara-598052 said: (Quote) Shannan-733493 said: To...
(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said:

Quote:
Sara-598052 said:

Quote:
Shannan-733493 said: To clarify--I am referring to a previous post that called the woman who started this thread ugly and at worst evil for supporting a different political candidate than she. I find that to be completely inappropriate for a Christian website.

My diocese fully supports people informing themselves on the candidates and voting their consciences. I listened to Cardinal Dolan say the same thing on the radio the other day. There is not only one choice for Catholics. You may disagree but it is really disturbing to see the vitriol spewed here against people who support the democratic ticket.


thank you.


Sara, you are young and I would hate for you to be misled by rogue Catholics who are out and out refusing to listen to the church thus causing scandal and supporting intrinsic evil. I posted so many articles on the other thread

www.catholicmatch.com


about what the Church is saying...the bishops are UNITED on the fact that we cannot support the HHS mandate (thus anyone who supports it) or a platform that promotes intrinsic evil meaning abortion....Obama in an unprecedented attack against the Church has attacked our religious freedom and is trying to force us to pay for someone's abortions while promoting more himself. His first week in office he repealed Bush's executive order not to send our tax dollars overseas for abortions....seriously we are already SO in debt and this is where are tax dollars are going. Now, he wants to further fund planned parenthood....I mean I could go on and on...but the point is our Church is SUING this administration....it couldn't be ANY clearer about its stance...and people twisting it on here.....not OK.

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Someone just shared this on the other thread and I am sharing it here....very,very interesting.

hosted-p0.vresp.com

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Laura-695247 said: (Quote) Paul-866591 said: I will only comment on one issue contained in yo...
(Quote) Laura-695247 said:

Quote:
Paul-866591 said:

I will only comment on one issue contained in your statement. It is not a political, so is not aimed at either candidate. In your second paragraph you state, "Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade. "

Unfortunately the dire consequences you predict, except for the seeking of back alley abortions and possibly the do it yourself variety, are happening today with perfectly legal abortions, probably at almost the same rate as they occur when a back alley abortion is obtained.

I would also point out, that your same argument can be applied to justify other crimes being made legal; i.e. prostitution, gambling, cock fighting, etc.. We may as well legalize them since people will engage in those activities anyway. It doesn't fly.

A society for good or ill creates an ethos for itself. Part of the "revoluition" of the 1960's was a revolt against the hypocrisy that exists in every society everywhere and at every time. American society had a moral ethos, admittedly one that was often observed in its violation then in its adhering to. But it was a standard to which people could strive for and actions judged against.

If the revvolt had only been against hypocrisy or the excesses, things might have turned out well. Instead the revolt was against societal standards with the attended demand they be done away with. And that is what we have today, Not only an American Society, but a world wide society with no standards except what an individual thinks feels good for them. A world wide society that has adopted the evil actions that some engaged in hypocritically as the positive standard by which our actions and beliefs are to be judged. If we don't accept evil as a good then we are societies outcasts.



Paul, I did not read Shannan post in that way. People on here seem so abortion centric. If people really want to stop abortion, they need to be 7/7 and not have premarital sex/ sex without openness for life. Abortions will happen regardless of legality. People need to INSPIRE women to keep their babies...and inspire young men/men to be abstinent. 50% of the women having abortions were on contraceptives, by planned parenthood statistics. Men who are anti-abortion but have sex out of marriage are an accomplice to murder if that women goes to have an abortion. It is very easy to have an abortion...eating lots of green papaya, taking a bunch of birth control pills, falling down the stairs...it's gonna happen regardless of the laws.
I am voting my conscience. I will vote looking at the whole picture...I will vote pro-life based on military, environmental and other issues. All these past republican presidents just PO the rest of the world...I will vote for the one who I don't think will get us into a nuclear war that will obliterate 4.7 billion people...not just the 230 exterminated since Roe v. Wade. Inspire change, don't legislate it! :o)

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First off...all the wars combined do not even come close to the babies murdered world-wide added up...secondly...how dare you imply democrats are less of war mongrels.....history does NOT support you. Obama just had his own little war in lybia and because of his policies we have four dead embassadors now. Our enemies are no longer scared of us and they definitely do not respect us. And just so you know...I was an INDEPENDENT up until Obama was elected and then I had it with the democrats...everything in their platform is evil and they are now out and out trying to destroy Christianity and babies....especially under this president. If we lose our relgious freedom....what do you think is left?????????

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but b...
(Quote) Shannan-733493 said: With all due respect, Elizabeth, I disagree. I respect and applaud the fervency of your beliefs, but believe that the political reality is much more complex. I don't believe that voting for one side means being on the side of good, and voting for the other side being on the side of evil.

And for the record, I do not disagree with the church's position on abortion. But if Mitt Romney is sworn in as president in January 2013, abortion will not end overnight. So it is just not true that the lives of millions of unborn children hinges on voting against Obama. Romney is someone who has changed his political views so many times, it is impossible to know what he really believes or would do as president. But let's assume that he will try to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade. He may or may not get to appoint Supreme Court justices, depending on deaths and retirements of the sitting justices If he does, the people he appoints may or may not vote to overturn Roe versus Wade, no matter what Romney believed when he appointed them. If Roe vs. Wade gets overturned, the question of the legality of abortion would be left up to individual states. Some states would outlaw it, others would not. Women with more resources could travel to the states that allow it, just like before Roe v. Wade. So many abortions would still take place.

Even if EVERY state outlawed abortion, abortions would still take place. Desperate women would turn to back-alley abortionists or attempt do-it-yourself abortions and many would end up dying or infertile as a result. This is what happened before Roe vs. Wade.

Far FEWER abortions would take place if we have a system of affordable health care and so couples who do not follow Catholic teaching (and never will no matter who is elected or whether the HHS mandate is upheld or withdrawn) have access to contraception. I do not want to live in a society where any church would attempt to outlaw contraception for couples who do not share the same views. The church's teaching on contraception is beautiful, but I don't support mandating it on all of society. And if that were to happen, it would surely lead to MORE abortion, which I think most of us would agree would be a terrible thing.

I fundamentally disagree that this election is a simple matter of black and white. And I'm not even touching the social justice, environmental, and the dignity and rights of worker issues that are also at stake in this election.

You may think I am misguided, and feel free to pray for my soul (I need all of the help I can get!). But I hope that we can all be way more civil on these forums in the future, and respect the right of each person to educate himself or herself and vote his or her conscience.
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You are an EXPERT at justifications and rationalizations. No one is trying to force someone else to not use contraception....however they are trying to FORCE US to pay for it and help them against OUR beliefs and values. Affordable health care is already there and has nothing to do with people chosing abortions. People chose abortions because they believe the baby is not a human being and because it is an inconvenience to them. So much has already been previously written about this...I just don't feel like getting into it...but I will say where are my freedoms, my choice, and my conscience....I do NOT want to pay for anyone's abortion or birth control as I do believe what our Church for 2,000 years teaches...either you do or you don't.

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Oct 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Clarence-698070 said: (Quote) Thomas-699657 said: Watch the video and learn about your Cathol...
(Quote) Clarence-698070 said:

Quote:
Thomas-699657 said:

Watch the video and learn about your Catholic faith. Instead of playing games, you might learn something you don't know yet. www.youtube.com



Yeah I dont have an hour to watch that. How about you tell me where it answers my question?

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How convenient...stay uninformed so you can spread scandal. The Church is VERY CLEAR about where it stands....the UNITED states Catholic Bishops are suing this administration...period. Without religious freedom...what is left??? We should NOT be forced to go against our consciences and pay for murdering innocent babies and birth control amongst many other problems with this administration.

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