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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Oct 12th 2012 new

(Quote) Shale-638433 said: Unless something major happens to change my mind, I too, will not be voting. ... It...
(Quote) Shale-638433 said:

Unless something major happens to change my mind, I too, will not be voting.

...

It is all rather ridiculous, and turns into one big argument of shades of grey, with points, defenses, being mustered from a tiny portion of the differences. Things that we dont even have a written guarantee on. I know the church has made a huge deal about the birth control issue, but I think that taking that to the extreme of religious persecution down the road is a bit heavy handed.

--hide--



Shale,


The Church makes a "big deal" about millions of abortions. It's a non-negotiable issue to reflect on. Keeping a democrat and pro-choice platform at the helm through a direct vote or passive non-vote permits that to continue unabated. At least a republican, with the party platform behind him and people holding him to it steps in the right direction, even if not ideal.


Also, it amazes me that you cannot see the persecution being waged on Catholics from this administration.

LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new

Welcome Shale,


I believe that you, like Charles (in this thread), are setting yourself up to never vote for a presidential candidate for the rest of your life. In my opinion, you are looking for a pure candidate who believes most all of the things that you believe and does not believe most all of the things that you do not believe. Perhaps you would vote for someone who is nearly a clone of yourself (in terms of beliefs and convictions), but the more they differ from you, the more reasons you will find not to vote for them or not vote at all. We only get to vote for one president at a time. If everyone were to conform to their own Utopian standard of their ideal candidate, then we would never be able to narrow our choice to a single president every four years.


If you have not already realized in your first 31 years on this planet, I will break this news to you. Any institution, process, business, family, organization, etc. ...... run by mere mortal human beings..... WILL ALWAYS BE GREATLY FLAWED. Even the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, but run and populated by mere mortal and flawed human beings, has great flaws. We should not be surprised by this. This is to be expected. It has ALWAYS been this way, and it will ALWAYS be this way.... until the end of time.


All that being said, we are called to work with the hand that has been dealt to us, make the best of it, and improve the government, society and world as best we can. Often, this improvement must be done in very small, incremental steps..... and often choosing the lesser of two evils, when there is no better choice. We are not permitted just throw up our hands in frustration, quit altogether and retreat to our idealistic Utopion fantasy world. That would be really pathetic. If God had followed this strategy, he would have never sent his Son to this Earth to deal with all of us pathetically flawed human beings. More likely, he would have just extinguished the Earth in some fashion, and started over or just given up on whole idea.


If you're going to wait for excellent choices or near perfection, you may as well just give up now and leave the difficult work to someone whom is willing participate and has the guts to do it. In your last message you wrote that "the rest of us are left sitting on the sidelines wondering why...." You are on the sidelines because you have chosen to be there. Nobody put you on the sidelines. Complaining doesn't do anything to actually improve the situation. You actually have to participate in the process and vote (among other things). Don't just leave the heavy lifting to everyone else and then continually complain because situation doesn't improve. YOU are either part of the problem or part of the solution.


Just my thoughts.


Ed

LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new

(Quote) Shale-638433 said: Unless something major happens to change my mind, I too, will not be voting. For everyone ...
(Quote) Shale-638433 said:

Unless something major happens to change my mind, I too, will not be voting.

For everyone who says with conviction, "This is what Romney supports", take a step back and look at his history. It is necessary, or felt to be necessary, to change your views from time to time when running for an elected office. However, the speed and intensity that Romney has put towards his changes in view have been flabbergasting over the last year. Some of you may be right on some of his views, but with what we've seen from the man, I can't imagine any of us can say with certainty what he will or will not support if he becomes President.

Obama is a lost cause in terms of arguing against, his track record, his debate performance, there seems to be a certain group of people in terms of mindset who he is guaranteed to get, but the rest are either up for grabs, or completely against his immoral stances.

I WANT to vote, I WANT a candidate worthy of voting for, but our democratic system that so many in the world want to have, is deeply flawed. The extremely well off pour money into the coffers of every politician who is running for a position that might help or hurt them, the rest of us are left sitting on the sidelines wondering why the candidates give us lip service but then turn around and make decisions that support those who put them in a position to be elected.

It is all rather ridiculous, and turns into one big argument of shades of grey, with points, defenses, being mustered from a tiny portion of the differences. Things that we dont even have a written guarantee on. I know the church has made a huge deal about the birth control issue, but I think that taking that to the extreme of religious persecution down the road is a bit heavy handed.

--hide--

What I think you fail to understand is that not voting actually would work as a vote FOR Obama. This is quite a big leap and I don't mean for it to come across as judging or insulting...but, honestly, when I hear people say they won't vote for the reasons you have stated...the only thing that keeps coming to mind is the Confiteor...specifically "in what I have done and in what I have failed to do."

I also have always agreed with the thought that if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain.

I'm saddened by a lot of my generation. Some are apathetic, some don't look beyond the surface for answers and accept only what they are told (on either side)...and that scares me. Because now my generation is raising children that will frequently take cues on these ideas from their parents. So the "I don't care" or "I can't make a difference" attitude, which is so damaging to our country, our freedom and our Faith will continue to be spread to future generations. I worry more for the non-voters or the apathetic and their offspring than for the people that have actually consciously decided on an opinion, even if we disagree with their opinion.

You say the system is flawed...I can't really disagree. But to do nothing about trying to change it will only make things worse.

And religious persecution should never be taken lightly or thought too impossible to happen. As rights begin to be stepped on or denied and people do nothing, it only opens room for more rights to be stripped away. Many of my family members fought and/or died for our freedom which many people my age don't feel is important enough to honor them by doing our CIVIC DUTY in casting a vote.

Our actions and inactions can spread among others...sometimes more easily than words. Such as one good deed can trigger another or a person living for God can inspire another person, so can people be negatively impacted by the behavior of those around them.

If the view of "I'm not going to vote" for whatever reason spreads...then what our entire country is founded on will fail...our freedom will fall.

LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new

The Obama campaign thanks you for yoiur vote.

When the podcast of the second hour of todays "CAtholic Answers Live" become availble, I suggest youlisten to it.

Oh, by the way, POpe John Paul II said that not voting is morally objectionable.

(Quote) Shale-638433 said: Unless something major happens to change my mind, I too, will not be voting. For everyone ...
(Quote) Shale-638433 said:

Unless something major happens to change my mind, I too, will not be voting.

For everyone who says with conviction, "This is what Romney supports", take a step back and look at his history. It is necessary, or felt to be necessary, to change your views from time to time when running for an elected office. However, the speed and intensity that Romney has put towards his changes in view have been flabbergasting over the last year. Some of you may be right on some of his views, but with what we've seen from the man, I can't imagine any of us can say with certainty what he will or will not support if he becomes President.

Obama is a lost cause in terms of arguing against, his track record, his debate performance, there seems to be a certain group of people in terms of mindset who he is guaranteed to get, but the rest are either up for grabs, or completely against his immoral stances.

I WANT to vote, I WANT a candidate worthy of voting for, but our democratic system that so many in the world want to have, is deeply flawed. The extremely well off pour money into the coffers of every politician who is running for a position that might help or hurt them, the rest of us are left sitting on the sidelines wondering why the candidates give us lip service but then turn around and make decisions that support those who put them in a position to be elected.

It is all rather ridiculous, and turns into one big argument of shades of grey, with points, defenses, being mustered from a tiny portion of the differences. Things that we dont even have a written guarantee on. I know the church has made a huge deal about the birth control issue, but I think that taking that to the extreme of religious persecution down the road is a bit heavy handed.

--hide--

LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new

Ed, I agree with everything you say. However your statement, "Even the Catholic Church ... ." requires claification.

The Church itself, aside from any member or leader, or teacher in that Church, is flawless. Its public face as examplified by the clergy or individuals like you or me are flawed and may make the Church appear to be flawed.

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Welcome Shale, I believe that you, like Charles (in this thread), are setting yourself up ...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Welcome Shale,


I believe that you, like Charles (in this thread), are setting yourself up to never vote for a presidential candidate for the rest of your life. In my opinion, you are looking for a pure candidate who believes most all of the things that you believe and does not believe most all of the things that you do not believe. Perhaps you would vote for someone who is nearly a clone of yourself (in terms of beliefs and convictions), but the more they differ from you, the more reasons you will find not to vote for them or not vote at all. We only get to vote for one president at a time. If everyone were to conform to their own Utopian standard of their ideal candidate, then we would never be able to narrow our choice to a single president every four years.


If you have not already realized in your first 31 years on this planet, I will break this news to you. Any institution, process, business, family, organization, etc. ...... run by mere mortal human beings..... WILL ALWAYS BE GREATLY FLAWED. Even the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, but run and populated by mere mortal and flawed human beings, has great flaws. We should not be surprised by this. This is to be expected. It has ALWAYS been this way, and it will ALWAYS be this way.... until the end of time.


All that being said, we are called to work with the hand that has been dealt to us, make the best of it, and improve the government, society and world as best we can. Often, this improvement must be done in very small, incremental steps..... and often choosing the lesser of two evils, when there is no better choice. We are not permitted just throw up our hands in frustration, quit altogether and retreat to our idealistic Utopion fantasy world. That would be really pathetic. If God had followed this strategy, he would have never sent his Son to this Earth to deal with all of us pathetically flawed human beings. More likely, he would have just extinguished the Earth in some fashion, and started over or just given up on whole idea.


If you're going to wait for excellent choices or near perfection, you may as well just give up now and leave the difficult work to someone whom is willing participate and has the guts to do it. In your last message you wrote that "the rest of us are left sitting on the sidelines wondering why...." You are on the sidelines because you have chosen to be there. Nobody put you on the sidelines. Complaining doesn't do anything to actually improve the situation. You actually have to participate in the process and vote (among other things). Don't just leave the heavy lifting to everyone else and then continually complain because situation doesn't improve. YOU are either part of the problem or part of the solution.


Just my thoughts.


Ed

--hide--

LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new
(Quote) Mary-486033 said: Sure you want to say that? Definitely applies to your Ron Paul. Ron Paul conceded that in some ...
(Quote) Mary-486033 said: Sure you want to say that? Definitely applies to your Ron Paul.



Ron Paul conceded that in some cases it's ok for a woman and her doctor to murder an infant.



But for Ron Paul...it's for a much more hideous reason...it's ok for sex selection!!!



"A bill to outlaw abortions based on a child's gender received a strong majority of votes in the U.S. House of Representatives Thursday but failed to gain the two-thirds margin of support needed for passage.



The House voted 246-168 in favor of H.R. 3541, known as the Prenatal Nondiscrimination Act (PRENDA). 226 Republicans and 20 Democrats (Altmire, Barrow, Boren, Cooper, Costello, Critz, Cuellar, Donnelly, Garamendi, Holden, Kissell, Lipinksi, Lynch, Matheson, McIntyre, Peterson, Rahall, Reyes, Ross of AR, and Shuler) voted yea; while 161 Democrats and seven Republicans (Amash, Bass of NH, Bono Mack, Dold, Hanna, Hayworth, and Paul) voted no.



www.lifesitenews.com



So, by your standards ("differences in degree but not in principle") Mitt Romney's position is more virtuous than Ron Paul's.



And by my standards...it sure is!



You can't ever vote for Ron Paul if you stay true to your own litmus test.
--hide--


Read why Ron Paul voted the way he did on that bill, rather than relying on hit-and-run mis-characterizations.

paul.house.gov
LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new
(Quote) ED-20630 said: Charles, I believe that you are lying to yourself if you in saying that the differences between ...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Charles,




I believe that you are lying to yourself if you in saying that the differences between the candidates "are merely cosmetic rather than philosophical" (as you wrote). No one who studies what the two presidential candidates have said and done can rationally come to such a conclusion.





This is a demonstration of "militant passivity" (which is the best way that I can describe it at this time). It is not noble, praiseworthy, responsible or courageous. To do such a thing is really just a pathetic cop-out on one's responsibilities as a citizen. To do such a thing is to stand up for nothing. Such a citizen, living in the U.S., has much more freedom and many more choices than the majority of the global population to help choose the path for his/her nation. But instead of exercising that freedom, that citizen decides to whine that they don't have better choices. To act in such a way is to be spoiled in one's freedom. Such a person must be very sheltered to not understand the true privilege and responsibility that they possess, living in relative peace and freedom in these United States. Probably the majority of the global population will never get the opportunity to make such a free and unrestricted choice in an election, and many do exercise the right to vote at great personal risk of being killed in the process.




Charles, here is a link to an article about a 14 year old Pakistani teenager (in the news this week). She was shot in the head by a member of the Taliban this week because she dared to stand up for her right to go to school and because she has consistently spoken out against the restrictions imposed by the Taliban. Charles, even if she survives, she will almost certainly never get the privelege and opportunity to freely vote for the leader of her country without the constant threat of being killed in the process. She is standing up for something important. She has literally risked being killed to help put her country on a better path. If she could only be so fortunate as to have the choices and freedoms that you have, she certainly wouldn't sit on the sidelines and whine because she doesn't have better choices. If you don't use your right to vote, don't be surprised if it is taken away from you someday.... as you did nothing to prevent it from happening.



www.usatoday.com






I hope that you will use your God-given brains and God-given freedoms to get out and vote in November. If you don't vote, it may be taken away from you in the future.






Just my thoughts.




Ed

--hide--


If I was told that I was going to be mugged, but that I would get to choose between Mugger A and Mugger B, would it be "militant passivity" for me to refuse to choose?

What is the goal that we are fighting for? Are we looking for small government? Are we looking for a moral and principled President? Are we looking for an end to war? Are we looking for an end corporate welfare? Are we looking for a decrease in the intrusions of basic freedoms?

Assuming that you answered 'yes' to all of these, then why even bother with the two current presidential candidates? It's true that there is a battle against evil in this country, but this election is not the battle-ground. That battle is lost. Evil is going to be president. Direct your efforts elsewhere.
LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new

Paul,


I agree with your clarification. It is the thoughts and actions of human beings within the Catholic Church that are the source of the flaws within the Church. The Catholic Church, as instituted by Christ, was/is flawless. Once human beings become involved, it is inevitable that sin and other flaws will also be present.


Ed

LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new
(Quote) Charles-512043 said: If I was told that I was going to be mugged, but that I would get to choose between Mugger A and Mugger ...
(Quote) Charles-512043 said:

If I was told that I was going to be mugged, but that I would get to choose between Mugger A and Mugger B, would it be "militant passivity" for me to refuse to choose?



What is the goal that we are fighting for? Are we looking for small government? Are we looking for a moral and principled President? Are we looking for an end to war? Are we looking for an end corporate welfare? Are we looking for a decrease in the intrusions of basic freedoms?



Assuming that you answered 'yes' to all of these, then why even bother with the two current presidential candidates? It's true that there is a battle against evil in this country, but this election is not the battle-ground. That battle is lost. Evil is going to be president. Direct your efforts elsewhere.
--hide--


Charles,

Here are the only VIABLE choices we face on November 6th:

....1) Vote for Obama.

....2) Don't vote.

....3) Vote for Romney.

Option 1 is out for anyone calling themselves Catholics, and only Catholic traitors will vote for Obama.

Option 2 is unconscionable for Catholics because our founding fathers and every soldier in our military since 1775 has fought for We The People to have that right. Besides, a no vote is a vote for Obama, and that is also unconscionable.

So Option 1 is unconscionable and Option 2 is unconscionable and I would argue irresponsible and cowardly. That leaves Option 3. Romney's record is socialist. He introduced Romneycare to the state of Massachusetts. His stance on life is not 100% in line with our position, but compared to Obama (the result of Option 1 or 2), Romney is a choir boy on life issues. Romney is not the perfect candidate, but he is better than either of the other options.

If you want to go vote and you vote for Gary Johnson or some other third party candidate, you are just throwing your vote away. Yet, this is also your right, and it is not unconscionable as Option 1 or Option 2, but in your heart, going in to the voting booth, because of the way our system works, a vote for a 3rd party candidate is not viable, and you know that, so you are again wasting your vote and helping Obama (as things stand in our system now).

If you really want to help to change things (other than just complain about it and divorce yourself from the process) is to get involved in political activism. Educate your family and friends. Ron Paul has a great following. If the media were fair (it's not), Ron Paul would have had a better chance. Let's work to make the media accountable. The federal government would like to censor the Internet. Let's work to keep the internet free and available to people so that we can continue to share these ideas and wake more people up.

In the meantime, the VIABLE choices on November 6th are limited. We must fight from where we stand. We must play the hand that we are dealt, and right now, that means voting for Romney n spite of his less than perfect record because the rest of the choices are worse.
LOCKED
Oct 12th 2012 new

With your current attitude, you should probably just give up on everything right now. Nothing approaching perfection (concerning politics) will ever be achieve on this earth until the end of time. Flawed human beings will ALWAYS achieve flawed results.


With your attitude, perhaps the motto for the rest of your life will be.... "Why even bother. The battle is lost." .... (as taken from the last paragraph of your previous message. This is a pathetically passive approach to life. I hope that you change, because this will certainly not be a successful path.


Ed

LOCKED
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