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Oct 16th 2012 new

Appaluse,applause,applause!!!!! wave wave wave wave wave wave You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! :goldstar: :goldstar: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: Charles,It's probably good that you brought up this topic. It is definitely something...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:

Charles,

It's probably good that you brought up this topic. It is definitely something you will want to be on the same page with your spouse when the time comes. The issue is if this is a lie. While many of us believe it is not, it is simply a way to celebrate and pass on information to our children, you do not agree. If you believe it to be a lie, then you definitely should not pass it on to your children. To be a sin, you have to know that what you are doing is wrong.

I found the following in the Catholic Answers website. It echoes most of what we have said here, so take it as you will. Please pay close attention to the last sentence. If you choose to not tell your own children the story, please also teach them sensitivity so as they don't ruin it for others.


Is it lying to tell kids there is a Santa?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very
clear that we shouldn't lie for any reason. How then can we justify lying to
children about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, by telling
kids they are real when we know they aren't? Is it a sin if I do this? __________________
Gary
Zimak
,

Catholic Lay
Evangelist

FollowingTheTruth.com Last edited by Michelle Arnold; Nov 15, '06 at 3:24
pm
.
gez722 View Public
Profile Find all posts by gez722 #2 Nov 15, '06, 3:16 pm Michelle Arnold

Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 3, 2004 Posts: 4,737 Religion: Catholic Re: Is it lying to tell kids there is a
Santa?
Without knowing which passages in the Catechism
of the Catholic Church
you are thinking of, I cannot comment on them. What I
can do is to comment on the idea of telling children stories of Santa, the
Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.

It is not lying to create stories for
young children. That is basically what is done when parents tell their children
of imaginary creatures such as the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. From the
beginning of time parents have spun such tales for the entertainment and
education of their children. Rather than "lying," it can be considered
"myth-making." Myths are a means of conveying certain truths pictorially rather
than didactically. When parents tell their children tales of the Easter Bunny
and the Tooth Fairy, the larger truths that are being conveyed mythically are
that we are part of a larger universe and are watched over and cared for by good
spirits whom we cannot yet know empirically. This can be considered groundwork
for later introduction to the communion of saints.

As for Santa, he is
based on a real person: St.
Nicholas
, an early Catholic bishop who is a patron saint of children
because of positive interactions he was believed to have had with children
during his life. The stories that have been based upon St. Nicholas are what we
call legend. Legends are generally non-historical or unverifiable stories
passed down through the ages about a person or group of people. While Catholic
parents may want to make sure children know about the real-life saint behind the
Santa Claus legend, there is nothing wrong with passing on pious legends to
children.

The real question probably comes when children find out that
their parents are the ones who are providing the Santa gifts, Easter candy, and
Tooth Fairy money. In my experience, parents tend to worry too much about how
their children will receive this news. Many children through many generations
simply accept this information as a part of growing up, and, in fact, will
"collude" with parents to keep the myth going by not letting their parents in on
the fact that they know The Truth in order to avoid spoiling their parents' fun.
But, if a child does feel betrayed to find out The Truth, then the parent can
explain the context of storytelling and myth-making, perhaps pointing out to the
child that Let's Pretend is a game for people of all ages.

Of course, it
should be said, if a parent does not feel comfortable taking this approach to
Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, the parent is free to leave out
such stories from his child's education. He should though teach the child to be
sensitive to not spoiling the fun of other children by telling them that such
characters are Not Real.

Recommended reading:

Yes,
Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus
by Francis P. Church

--hide--

LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new

(Quote) Jerry-730726 said: Ray I think Paul may have meant "reached the heights of INSANITY"! Oh well....could hav...
(Quote) Jerry-730726 said:

Ray I think Paul may have meant "reached the heights of INSANITY"! Oh well....could have fit anyway!

--hide--

Jerry, it is both inane and insane!!!

LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: So, is it also okay for a cheating husband to make up a story about being cap...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

So, is it also okay for a cheating husband to make up a story about being captured by space aliens, brainwashed, and made a prisoner in his own body as how he ended up in the bed of another woman and then tell it to his wife as if that were true?

By the reasoning you are following, it is permissible to do so, and with no sin.

If the cheating husband example I gave is not a permissible action, then it is not permissible to tell children about a preternatural being, with some measure of omnipotence and omniscience, which flies around with bewitched animals and sled, committing stupendous feats in one night, but otherwise living at the north pole is a real being.

To say what you know is certainly false, to another person and allow them to believe it as true, such as in the case of "Santa" is to lie...and it is cruel. If you think it is not a lie and not cruel, then my cheating husband example contains no lie and is not cruel for a husband to do to his wife.

If it is innocence to have a mind formed upon error, then Satan must have the most innocent mind of all God's creatures.

--hide--



Wow....this is alot for me to discuss here.
Would you consider Christ's parables a lie? Again, "lie" is a horrible English term that doesn't amount to much. Really "deceive" is the word we want to use. If you are in China and pregnant and you will be forced to have an abortion.....do you tell the people you are pregnant? Or do you "lie" to save the baby? What Christ doesn't want us doing is not giving out "truths". Not allowing people to know the "truth" about him. In fact, that's why some lie's are mortal sins and some are not. The lie you listed would DEFINITELY be a mortal sin. Because it's purpose was to aid in the committing of a mortal sin, which means it is also a mortal sin. Even if we established that telling children a "lie" about Santa IS a sin, it is definitely not a mortal one because the church bishops would be really really upset at America. So right there is the evidence that your example is not on the same level as a "lie about Santa". If a person told a lie to a coworker saying he was captured by space aliens, brainwashed, and made a prisoner of his own body and his coworker believed him where is the sin? There is one, but a person might not guess where it is. It is....of course, in the intent. If his intention is to gain attention, well....that could be the sin of pride. But it is also the sin of purposely trying to indoctrinate a belief in something other than that which comes from God. If you told an adult that Santa Claus is real(they would have to be rediculous to believe it), then you would be indoctrinating them with a false belief. Children aren't expected to believe Santa Claus is real and to base major life-changing decisions on it. It simply encourages them to do right. Here is a good one. If a child asks how babies are born, and they want to know how a baby ends up in Mommies tummy. And they flat out ask it. And you say..."When God knows Mommy and Daddy wants a baby he puts one in her belly" is that a lie? Remember a lie includes withholding the plain truth. ALWAYS! According to the commandments, a lie always includes NOT telling someone something as well as telling someone something. If a child asks how a baby comes out of the stomach, what are you going to say?

Also, if this WAS considered by the church to be a lie. They would have addressed it at some point in history. If they thought it was as dangerous as this writer seems to believe. The church instead has always encouraged legends. They even encourage some false stories of saints. And as for me, I side with the church on this.

LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new
Charles,

A thought crossed my mind ..."The Miracle on 34th Street"

The Miracle on 34th Street (1947) - 34:36 to the end - www.youtube.com

Both versions are beautiful! Watch the 1947 and 1994 version - www.imdb.com

St. Nick is real. The Spirit of God, through St. Nicholas, through loving parents touch little children with wonder and delight.

The years of childhood are few and quickly go by...

and "once you pass it's borders...you can ne'er return again". www.youtube.com
LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new

In the spirit of "light-heartedness" we should all "respect our elders" (they just might be Santa Claus! laughing)

LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new
(Quote) Marissa-529206 said: Would you consider Christ's parables a lie?
(Quote) Marissa-529206 said:





Would you consider Christ's parables a lie?

--hide--
That is EXACTLY what I thought of too...

Jesus teaching in parables. biggrin
LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new

Charles, if you think telling kids there is a Santa Clause is a lie and evil, you better not do it.

Everyone knows that each time you tell a lie, your nose gets longer! laughing

LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: Charles,It's probably good that you brought up this topic. It is definitely something you will want...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:

Charles,

It's probably good that you brought up this topic. It is definitely something you will want to be on the same page with your spouse when the time comes. The issue is if this is a lie. While many of us believe it is not, it is simply a way to celebrate and pass on information to our children, you do not agree. If you believe it to be a lie, then you definitely should not pass it on to your children. To be a sin, you have to know that what you are doing is wrong.

I found the following in the Catholic Answers website. It echoes most of what we have said here, so take it as you will. Please pay close attention to the last sentence. If you choose to not tell your own children the story, please also teach them sensitivity so as they don't ruin it for others.


Is it lying to tell kids there is a Santa?



The Catechism of the Catholic Church is very
clear that we shouldn't lie for any reason. How then can we justify lying to
children about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, by telling
kids they are real when we know they aren't? Is it a sin if I do this?

__________________
Gary
Zimak
,

Catholic Lay
Evangelist

FollowingTheTruth.com

Last edited by Michelle Arnold; Nov 15, '06 at 3:24
pm
.


gez722 View Public
Profile Find all posts by gez722

#2

Nov 15, '06, 3:16 pm

Michelle Arnold



Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 3, 2004

Posts: 4,737

Religion: Catholic

Re: Is it lying to tell kids there is a
Santa?


Without knowing which passages in the Catechism
of the Catholic Church
you are thinking of, I cannot comment on them. What I
can do is to comment on the idea of telling children stories of Santa, the
Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.

It is not lying to create stories for
young children. That is basically what is done when parents tell their children
of imaginary creatures such as the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. From the
beginning of time parents have spun such tales for the entertainment and
education of their children. Rather than "lying," it can be considered
"myth-making." Myths are a means of conveying certain truths pictorially rather
than didactically. When parents tell their children tales of the Easter Bunny
and the Tooth Fairy, the larger truths that are being conveyed mythically are
that we are part of a larger universe and are watched over and cared for by good
spirits whom we cannot yet know empirically. This can be considered groundwork
for later introduction to the communion of saints.

As for Santa, he is
based on a real person: St.
Nicholas
, an early Catholic bishop who is a patron saint of children
because of positive interactions he was believed to have had with children
during his life. The stories that have been based upon St. Nicholas are what we
call legend. Legends are generally non-historical or unverifiable stories
passed down through the ages about a person or group of people. While Catholic
parents may want to make sure children know about the real-life saint behind the
Santa Claus legend, there is nothing wrong with passing on pious legends to
children.

The real question probably comes when children find out that
their parents are the ones who are providing the Santa gifts, Easter candy, and
Tooth Fairy money. In my experience, parents tend to worry too much about how
their children will receive this news. Many children through many generations
simply accept this information as a part of growing up, and, in fact, will
"collude" with parents to keep the myth going by not letting their parents in on
the fact that they know The Truth in order to avoid spoiling their parents' fun.
But, if a child does feel betrayed to find out The Truth, then the parent can
explain the context of storytelling and myth-making, perhaps pointing out to the
child that Let's Pretend is a game for people of all ages.

Of course, it
should be said, if a parent does not feel comfortable taking this approach to
Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, the parent is free to leave out
such stories from his child's education. He should though teach the child to be
sensitive to not spoiling the fun of other children by telling them that such
characters are Not Real.

Recommended reading:

Yes,
Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus
by Francis P. Church
--hide--


Lots of these points have already been brought up, but just to re-cap since the thread is winding down...

The person who wrote this first states that "It is not lying to create stories for

young children." But telling stories is different than the practices around Santa Clause. Stories (assuming the author means stories such as fictional books) aren't told with the effect of knowingly having the child believe what is being said. This is the key and clear difference. If parents wanted to tell their children the tale of a man who lives in the north pole, has elves, flying reindeer, etc., but then finishes the story by making it clear to the child that it is just a story, and not truth, then there is no problem. But when a parent knowingly let's the child believe the tale, and in fact then goes on to deceive them by sneaking gifts under the tree at night, how is this anything other than a lie? Not a grave lie, for sure, but a lie all the same.

The previous paragraph also goes for the parables of Jesus.

Others have brought up the fact that St. Nicholas was a real person. That's true, and parents should tell their children about the real St. Nicholas. But, the true, historical St. Nicholas is not still alive, does not circumnavigate the globe in a single night, etc. The historical St. Nicholas is not the same as the modern Santa Clause convention. I can't make up tales about how my late grandfather did battle with martians during the Cold War, and then claim them to not be lies just because my late grandfather was a real person.
LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Thoughtful answers have been given which you have totally discarded, disdainfully. When presente...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Thoughtful answers have been given which you have totally discarded, disdainfully. When presented with other similar situations, you have gone out of your way to justify them without understanding the justifications you give merely prove the falsity of the original premise.



Catholic thinkers,, including saints, throughout the ages have more than once wasted a lot of time and reasoning powers on a lot of inconsequential things, which the "Santa Clause lie" more than fits the bill. The number of angels that fit on the head of a pin is one. Now since that one qualified as inane so does this one..

--hide--


Where did I discard any answers? I disagreed with several, but I didn't ignore them.

If you go back and look through the responses I gave to all the similar situations presented with, you'll see that I didn't have to go out of my way at all to point out the differences. The differences were clear, as Chelsea has also several times pointed out.
LOCKED
Oct 16th 2012 new
Well, I started this mess. It's probably only fair that I finish it.

I can't wait to get back to the political forums where the debates aren't so contentious. biggrin This topic has been automatically locked due to size. Any further discussion can be continued in a new topic.
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