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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

I am currently director of Middle School youth ministry at my local parish. I also teach the High School youth group, and help teach the confirmation class. I am a VERY big supporter of apologetics, and have been inspired by the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas to write my own catholic answer book. I am already aware of many questions that catholics and non-catholics have and I can answer them. But I want to hear your questions as well, so that I can more fully complete my book. Thanks!

P.S. I will be answering every question I get as detailed as I can. They can be about anything even remotely related to catholicism. Thanks.

Oct 19th 2012 new

Hi there. Great thread!
I am presently taking a scripture class offered at my parish on the Book of Esther-it's tough being a woman by Beth Moore. I didn't understand first of all why they were teaching this in the Catholic church, we have a work book and once a week we come to class and listen and watch her video. It is for woman, The men also are studying something different at the parish, just for men.

But, back to this study, Beth Moore is a christian, and teaches from the NIV bible. Since this has started I have been very confused and when I reached chapter 4, I have started an intense research on my own of the differences of interpertation and the different bibles. The catholic bible has added chapters that the protesants bible do not have. The NIV and King James especially have different translations. I am using the New American Catholic Bible but also have been reading the the others in comparsion, which is very confusing.

Her book and video is interesting and she presents herself with a lot of drama.

However, what stopped me dead in my tracks is when she wrote in the book, about Esther, is "The entire theology of the book erupts from the peculiar doctrine of divine hiddenness."

My first thought is as a catholic I was never taught about the doctrine of hiddenness, where is this written? I asked the Director of Religious Education there about this and she said we have no doctrine on this. I find this could be very misleading to the Catholic ladies attending this class, since there is no one there with authority to teach anything about this study, we only watch the video, then leave for the week and do the bookwork, there might be a short discussion after the video with some comments but nothing about the scripture interpretations.


In my research I haven't found any doctrine of hiddenness in the catholic church's teaching, but I have found articles on the theology written by Dionysius the Areopagite, and an article recently on Hindu-Christian Dialogue Discusses The Hiddenness of God at USCCB.
www.usccb.org


This is certainly lead me into a extensive research on the different bibles. I have learned the in the Protestant bibles, that Martin Luther took out of the King James version, that he completely removes 7 books and many other books of poems, as he removed Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus( Sir) 1 and 2 Maccabees in the Old Testament. Plus in Esther and Daniel. He also tried to remove Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations in the New Testament, but later it was restored by his followers. Should it not be that scripture studies should be under the authority of the catholic teachings, and with the Catholic bible?

For now, something to think about. For a catholic to believe this is a doctrine, would this be a heresy?

Oct 19th 2012 new

I forgot to mention when I first looked up Divine Hiddenness it took me to Atheism on Wiki.



en.wikipedia.org

Oct 19th 2012 new

(Quote) Cindy-534370 said: Hi there. Great thread! I am presently taking a scripture class offered at my parish on the B...
(Quote) Cindy-534370 said:

Hi there. Great thread!
I am presently taking a scripture class offered at my parish on the Book of Esther-it's tough being a woman by Beth Moore. I didn't understand first of all why they were teaching this in the Catholic church, we have a work book and once a week we come to class and listen and watch her video. It is for woman, The men also are studying something different at the parish, just for men.

But, back to this study, Beth Moore is a christian, and teaches from the NIV bible. Since this has started I have been very confused and when I reached chapter 4, I have started an intense research on my own of the differences of interpertation and the different bibles. The catholic bible has added chapters that the protesants bible do not have. The NIV and King James especially have different translations. I am using the New American Catholic Bible but also have been reading the the others in comparsion, which is very confusing.

Her book and video is interesting and she presents herself with a lot of drama.

However, what stopped me dead in my tracks is when she wrote in the book, about Esther, is "The entire theology of the book erupts from the peculiar doctrine of divine hiddenness."

My first thought is as a catholic I was never taught about the doctrine of hiddenness, where is this written? I asked the Director of Religious Education there about this and she said we have no doctrine on this. I find this could be very misleading to the Catholic ladies attending this class, since there is no one there with authority to teach anything about this study, we only watch the video, then leave for the week and do the bookwork, there might be a short discussion after the video with some comments but nothing about the scripture interpretations.


In my research I haven't found any doctrine of hiddenness in the catholic church's teaching, but I have found articles on the theology written by Dionysius the Areopagite, and an article recently on Hindu-Christian Dialogue Discusses The Hiddenness of God at USCCB.
www.usccb.org


This is certainly lead me into a extensive research on the different bibles. I have learned the in the Protestant bibles, that Martin Luther took out of the King James version, that he completely removes 7 books and many other books of poems, as he removed Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus( Sir) 1 and 2 Maccabees in the Old Testament. Plus in Esther and Daniel. He also tried to remove Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations in the New Testament, but later it was restored by his followers. Should it not be that scripture studies should be under the authority of the catholic teachings, and with the Catholic bible?

For now, something to think about. For a catholic to believe this is a doctrine, would this be a heresy?

--hide--


Hi, I'm interested in answering your question, Cindy. I did find it very interesting. I am also writing this under the provision that Christian has every right to refute me and show me my errors. Sometimes it's a lot easier to give a formal answer when there is a simple answer to build on, too.

As far as I can see, Cindy, "divine hiddenness" as a term can apply to three concepts.

The first concept is that which the ones who profess there is no God put forth as proof that there probably is no God. The notion is that if God existed, He would be, in His nature, corporeally observable and clearly manifest to all in His actions constantly.

The second concept seems to come from non-Catholic authors as a way to explain the oppression or suffering of individuals in time. It is the notion that God deliberately hides Himself for some terminable period of time from any given individual.

The third concept I found in the writings of St. Ambrose, a Father of the Church, used as a means to explain the Holy Spirit's procession, not in terms of physical place, but, from the Father and the Son. It is the notion that the nature of God is invisible and incorporeal and therefore is not subject to time or place.

As far as what scriptures one should study, I would say that one should only study what the Church has approved as canonical: the old and vulgate edition of the scriptures (i.e., the Latin Vulgate as translated by St. Jerome).

Here is what the Council of Trent bound on this issue: " The Sacred and Holy, Oecumenical, and General Synod of Trent, - lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein, - keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the Holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten Traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament - seeing that one God is the Author of both - as also the said Traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of the Apostle James, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle. But if any one receive not, as Sacred and Canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the Old Latin Vulgate Edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the Traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church. "
...
" Moreover, the same Sacred and Holy Synod, - considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic, - ordains and declares, that the said Old and Vulgate Edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever. "

and then, also the First Vatican Council: "5. Now this supernatural revelation, according to the belief of the universal Church, as declared by the sacred Council of Trent, is contained in written books and unwritten traditions, which were received by the Apostles from the lips of Christ Himself, or came to the Apostles by the dictation of the Holy Spirit, and were passed on as it were from hand to hand until they reached us.

"6. The complete books of the Old and the New Testament with all their parts, as they are listed in the decree of the said Council and as they are found in the old Latin Vulgate edition, are to be received as Sacred and Canonical.

"7. These books the Church holds to be Sacred and Canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their Author, and were as such committed to the Church.

"8. Now since the decree on the interpretation of Holy Scripture, profitably made by the Council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, We renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows: that in matters of faith and morals, belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian doctrine, that meaning of Holy Scripture must be held to be the true one, which Holy Mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture.

"9. In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret Holy Scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the Fathers."

:)

Oct 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) Cindy-534370 said: For now, something to think about. For a catholic to believe this is a doctrine, would this be a ...
(Quote) Cindy-534370 said:

For now, something to think about. For a catholic to believe this is a doctrine, would this be a heresy?

--hide--


I want to provide a simple, yet full response to two issues you mentioned.

First and foremost, it is important to keep in mind that the catholic translations and interpretations of scripture did not add books, but in fact kept all of them! However, as protestant ideals began to form, they removed I beleive 8 books which they did not feel were "inspired" works. Having said this, it is safe to assume that what they actually were doing was removing books that questioned their new ways of thinking. So I suggest always take pretestant sources with a grain of salt.

Second, the short answer to your main concern from how it read it is simply this: 1. Doctrine can only be deemed as such from Rome. By that I mean the Pope with the help of the magesterium MUST make it doctrine for it to be doctrinal. For someone to beleive lies to be true for the catholic fait isn't exactly heresy, because it could simply be ignorance or misinformation on their parts. Heresy is a much more dire matter, and typically stronger variance from the original teachings of the church. Furthermore, Heresy in scripture is recognized as strong opinion, vs ignorance which is very typically received as mislead fact. I can go more in depth on this later, but I would require more research.

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: (Quote) Cindy-534370 said: Hi there. Great thread! I am presently ta...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

Quote:
Cindy-534370 said:

Hi there. Great thread!
I am presently taking a scripture class offered at my parish on the Book of Esther-it's tough being a woman by Beth Moore. I didn't understand first of all why they were teaching this in the Catholic church, we have a work book and once a week we come to class and listen and watch her video. It is for woman, The men also are studying something different at the parish, just for men.

But, back to this study, Beth Moore is a christian, and teaches from the NIV bible. Since this has started I have been very confused and when I reached chapter 4, I have started an intense research on my own of the differences of interpertation and the different bibles. The catholic bible has added chapters that the protesants bible do not have. The NIV and King James especially have different translations. I am using the New American Catholic Bible but also have been reading the the others in comparsion, which is very confusing.

Her book and video is interesting and she presents herself with a lot of drama.

However, what stopped me dead in my tracks is when she wrote in the book, about Esther, is "The entire theology of the book erupts from the peculiar doctrine of divine hiddenness."

My first thought is as a catholic I was never taught about the doctrine of hiddenness, where is this written? I asked the Director of Religious Education there about this and she said we have no doctrine on this. I find this could be very misleading to the Catholic ladies attending this class, since there is no one there with authority to teach anything about this study, we only watch the video, then leave for the week and do the bookwork, there might be a short discussion after the video with some comments but nothing about the scripture interpretations.


In my research I haven't found any doctrine of hiddenness in the catholic church's teaching, but I have found articles on the theology written by Dionysius the Areopagite, and an article recently on Hindu-Christian Dialogue Discusses The Hiddenness of God at USCCB.
www.usccb.org


This is certainly lead me into a extensive research on the different bibles. I have learned the in the Protestant bibles, that Martin Luther took out of the King James version, that he completely removes 7 books and many other books of poems, as he removed Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus( Sir) 1 and 2 Maccabees in the Old Testament. Plus in Esther and Daniel. He also tried to remove Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations in the New Testament, but later it was restored by his followers. Should it not be that scripture studies should be under the authority of the catholic teachings, and with the Catholic bible?

For now, something to think about. For a catholic to believe this is a doctrine, would this be a heresy?




Hi, I'm interested in answering your question, Cindy. I did find it very interesting. I am also writing this under the provision that Christian has every right to refute me and show me my errors. Sometimes it's a lot easier to give a formal answer when there is a simple answer to build on, too.

As far as I can see, Cindy, "divine hiddenness" as a term can apply to three concepts.

The first concept is that which the ones who profess there is no God put forth as proof that there probably is no God. The notion is that if God existed, He would be, in His nature, corporeally observable and clearly manifest to all in His actions constantly.

The second concept seems to come from non-Catholic authors as a way to explain the oppression or suffering of individuals in time. It is the notion that God deliberately hides Himself for some terminable period of time from any given individual.

The third concept I found in the writings of St. Ambrose, a Father of the Church, used as a means to explain the Holy Spirit's procession, not in terms of physical place, but, from the Father and the Son. It is the notion that the nature of God is invisible and incorporeal and therefore is not subject to time or place.

As far as what scriptures one should study, I would say that one should only study what the Church has approved as canonical: the old and vulgate edition of the scriptures (i.e., the Latin Vulgate as translated by St. Jerome).

Here is what the Council of Trent bound on this issue: " The Sacred and Holy, Oecumenical, and General Synod of Trent, - lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein, - keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the Holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten Traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament - seeing that one God is the Author of both - as also the said Traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of the Apostle James, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle. But if any one receive not, as Sacred and Canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the Old Latin Vulgate Edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the Traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church. "
...
" Moreover, the same Sacred and Holy Synod, - considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic, - ordains and declares, that the said Old and Vulgate Edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever. "

and then, also the First Vatican Council: "5. Now this supernatural revelation, according to the belief of the universal Church, as declared by the sacred Council of Trent, is contained in written books and unwritten traditions, which were received by the Apostles from the lips of Christ Himself, or came to the Apostles by the dictation of the Holy Spirit, and were passed on as it were from hand to hand until they reached us.

"6. The complete books of the Old and the New Testament with all their parts, as they are listed in the decree of the said Council and as they are found in the old Latin Vulgate edition, are to be received as Sacred and Canonical.

"7. These books the Church holds to be Sacred and Canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their Author, and were as such committed to the Church.

"8. Now since the decree on the interpretation of Holy Scripture, profitably made by the Council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, We renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows: that in matters of faith and morals, belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian doctrine, that meaning of Holy Scripture must be held to be the true one, which Holy Mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture.

"9. In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret Holy Scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the Fathers."

:)

--hide--




Thank you for answering Chelsea. I agree one should study the Catholic Bible, I have learned so much about the different bibles out there. A lot also of how they are translated and their meaning. I am still learning much about the different bibles and comparing them.

You are very bright and knowledgeable in the faith. Calling the Hiddenness of God as concepts and not doctrines is true. There are Theologies written concerning this topic. One that I have started reading is written by Dionysius.

hidden-scriptures.blogspot.com

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Christian-906961 said: (Quote) Cindy-534370 said: For now, something to think about. For a ca...
(Quote) Christian-906961 said:

Quote:
Cindy-534370 said:

For now, something to think about. For a catholic to believe this is a doctrine, would this be a heresy?




I want to provide a simple, yet full response to two issues you mentioned.

First and foremost, it is important to keep in mind that the catholic translations and interpretations of scripture did not add books, but in fact kept all of them! However, as protestant ideals began to form, they removed I beleive 8 books which they did not feel were "inspired" works. Having said this, it is safe to assume that what they actually were doing was removing books that questioned their new ways of thinking. So I suggest always take pretestant sources with a grain of salt.

Second, the short answer to your main concern from how it read it is simply this: 1. Doctrine can only be deemed as such from Rome. By that I mean the Pope with the help of the magesterium MUST make it doctrine for it to be doctrinal. For someone to beleive lies to be true for the catholic fait isn't exactly heresy, because it could simply be ignorance or misinformation on their parts. Heresy is a much more dire matter, and typically stronger variance from the original teachings of the church. Furthermore, Heresy in scripture is recognized as strong opinion, vs ignorance which is very typically received as mislead fact. I can go more in depth on this later, but I would require more research.

--hide--



Thank you Christian for answering. Yes, much research is needed to answer in depth questions, it takes time to do so.

You are correct that this really isn't considered a heresy. I have talked to a very intelligent and knowledgeable priest about the hiddenness of God, and he simply said, it isn't a doctrine, but it doesn't have to be one, because it is just accepted that we know God is hidden, that we cannot see Him, just the same if we say God is good, we know that God is all good, so it is an accepted knowledge that we have in the church. He also said , no it would not be a heresy.

I also found some things as the protesants believe in predestined and we believe in free will.home.inreach.com
I am looking for the part where in the study of Esther, that she said it was predestined. Let you know later.

Oct 24th 2012 new

Looking forward to it!biggrin

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