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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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12/01/2012 new

(Quote) Ted-921153 said: Liberacion, It is good to be concerned about indoctrination-style teaching of evolution. American p...
(Quote) Ted-921153 said:

Liberacion, It is good to be concerned about indoctrination-style teaching of evolution. American progressives rely on the theory to claim that human beings are becoming more morally virtuous as time goes on and this is the basis of humanism - a belief system that is akin to atheism.

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Ted, The evolution argument is not a Christian vs. Athiest battle. As you no doubt are aware, Pope John Paul II made it very clear there is no conflict between science and religion, specifically regarding evolution. I think you've been watching too many Fundamentalist televangelists. Advising someone to teach their child Intelligent Design? If they swallow that they can forget about a career in science. Teaching children evolution science is not indoctrination. Indeed we have a responsibility to pass on what we know to our children. Did God have a hand in the path that evolution took? No one knows of course, but I believe he did. It may help to read the following pronouncement from none other than Pat Robertson:

religion.blogs.cnn.com

12/01/2012 new

(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said: I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore...
(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said:

I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore unless they can explain to him the theory of evolution. She said his son believes in what his teacher taught in the class. How safe would our children be in public schools that teaches evolution and the teacher happens to be a non-Catholic and believes in this theory.

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Liberacion, This is again to stress the need for this young man to be open-minded and not to follow the dictates of science as it is currently understood. Einstein was not able to accept quantum mechanics which described a universe that was beyond what he had always contemplated to be true - that of an orderly closed system. I say this to point out that science changes human morality does not. But one thing for sure about human societies is in each age human societies pride themselves on being much more enlightened than a previous age.


Consider the fruits of the theory of evolution. We as a people are lulled into thinking that whatever certain elitist, educated people tell us must be enlightened because it must be the product of a more developed understanding of human nature. As a consequence some of believe that we are justified in committing sin because we are in the process of becoming beings who don't need a higher power to guide our lives.


Margaret Sanger adopted the precepts of the theory of evolution and decided that we as a society are justified in "helping" nature in its process of eliminating the unfit from our group and thus she was instrumental in spearheading the eugenics movement in the U.S. and has been adopted as a model for Hillary Clinton and other progressives. The Affordable Care Act is a vehicle for bringing about this better society that will be free of defects, disease and unwanted individuals. Sounds like a stretch? If the government has control over our health care decisions it will inevitably decide it knows what is best for the majority of people.


The teaching of Margaret Sanger was adopted by Adolf Hitler and his regime took eugenics to its logical ends. According to progressives, Hitler was only helping nature because evolutionary theory stresses the accidental nature of the essence of humanity. Evolutionary theory is devoid of the unique calling of human beings to know, love and serve God in this life and to enjoy Him in eternal life. Is it any wonder that evolutionary theory taken alone and without consideration for intelligent design leads many to atheism and nihilism?

12/01/2012 new

(Quote) Ted-921153 said: Liberacion, This is again to stress the need for this young man to be open-minded and ...
(Quote) Ted-921153 said:


Liberacion, This is again to stress the need for this young man to be open-minded and not to follow the dictates of science as it is currently understood. Einstein was not able to accept quantum mechanics which described a universe that was beyond what he had always contemplated to be true - that of an orderly closed system. I say this to point out that science changes human morality does not. But one thing for sure about human societies is in each age human societies pride themselves on being much more enlightened than a previous age.


Consider the fruits of the theory of evolution. We as a people are lulled into thinking that whatever certain elitist, educated people tell us must be enlightened because it must be the product of a more developed understanding of human nature. As a consequence some of believe that we are justified in committing sin because we are in the process of becoming beings who don't need a higher power to guide our lives.


Margaret Sanger adopted the precepts of the theory of evolution and decided that we as a society are justified in "helping" nature in its process of eliminating the unfit from our group and thus she was instrumental in spearheading the eugenics movement in the U.S. and has been adopted as a model for Hillary Clinton and other progressives. The Affordable Care Act is a vehicle for bringing about this better society that will be free of defects, disease and unwanted individuals. Sounds like a stretch? If the government has control over our health care decisions it will inevitably decide it knows what is best for the majority of people.


The teaching of Margaret Sanger was adopted by Adolf Hitler and his regime took eugenics to its logical ends. According to progressives, Hitler was only helping nature because evolutionary theory stresses the accidental nature of the essence of humanity. Evolutionary theory is devoid of the unique calling of human beings to know, love and serve God in this life and to enjoy Him in eternal life. Is it any wonder that evolutionary theory taken alone and without consideration for intelligent design leads many to atheism and nihilism?

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People can twist anything into a perversion.

You have not presented an argument against evolution here; you have only demonstrated that it is possible to do bad things with it. We can say the exact same thing about the Bible. How long was Scripture used to justify slavery? How many people were burned at the stake for being witches or heretics?

Nothing you have presented here address evolutionary theory at all. Some of the abuses yes, but it is not the fault of science or religion that some human beings pervert them. Good science and good religion do not contradict each other. They are both about truth. Different facets of it to be sure, but truth all the same.

12/01/2012 new

(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said: I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore...
(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said:

I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore unless they can explain to him the theory of evolution. She said his son believes in what his teacher taught in the class. How safe would our children be in public schools that teaches evolution and the teacher happens to be a non-Catholic and believes in this theory.

--hide--


Liberacion, As you know, the heart of Christianity for us is hope and it is the hope that derives from being God's children. Any ideology that tends to separate us from the love of God, whether it occurs through uninspired self-study or the uninspired lecture of a teacher who has no objective, other than to repeat information that he has learned, is likely to provoke an attitude of despair.


This activity of the mind which is closed to the possibility that union with God is our ultimate end, because God always was and did not evolve, is likely to lead us to sins of arrogance as well as apathy toward people we consider less fortunate. This young man, who is the son of your friend, must develop, as we all must at some time in our lives, the ability to critically think for ourselves especially when we are bombarded by a myriad of voices articulating diverse opinions and reject those spiritual forces that are evoked by the false prophets which cause us to rely on ourselves without giving credit to God with whom we were created to have a personal relationship.


In summary, if an ideology or theory of the nature of human beings, causes mental illness in individuals to which it has manifestly been declared to be irrevocable, and this mental illness is manifested by depression or despair, then it can't be of God regardless of whether or not it was intended to cause depression or despair. Does this mean that certain ideas contained in the theory of evolution are not true? Of course not! As one person posted here, it is what has been done with certain basic truths to create an entire philosophy of human existence is what is questionable in its puposes.

One truth that I would remark about is the selection for certain traits over many generations. We know that certain traits are favored and are selected for, i.e. predominate in successive generations of species, e.g. a short stalky stature is favored bipedal individuals in colder climates because heat loss is minimized.

Can natural selection then be extended to the belief that human beings, which contain the highest degree of order in the universe, were the result of an unfathomably large number of selections from the elements to the DNA molecule itself to the organization of these molecules to "build" the body and consciousness of human beings? There just was not enough time or individuals since the beginning of the universe, over 4 billion years ago, and that assumes that the natural selection for the human DNA molecule started at the beginning of the universe which points to another incredible leap of faith in this theory.

I haven't even begun to speak about the beginning of the universe from a singularity and how the evolution faithful cannot explain the origin of the singularity. My background includes degrees in electrical engineering, physics education and nursing and I would be willing to go up against the best scholars to prove that the philosophy espoused by the theory of evolution can't be right if it works against the original Author of life Who is continually challenging us toward the highest degree of order that we can attain in this life and Who is showing us the way toward eternal life.



12/16/2012 new

(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said: I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore...
(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said:

I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore unless they can explain to him the theory of evolution. She said his son believes in what his teacher taught in the class. How safe would our children be in public schools that teaches evolution and the teacher happens to be a non-Catholic and believes in this theory.

--hide--



I would point you in the direction of GK Chesterton on this subject. Read his arguement "Reductio ad abusurdem." To my knowledge, the Catholic Church always welcomes scientific inquiry and findings from it. Indeed Copernicus was a Polish priest who created the Heliocentric Theory, Gregor Mendel was a benedictine monk and he established the genetic theory and (last but not least) Belgian priest Georges Lemitaire invented the Big Bang theory. Furthermore the world's most active observatory is in Arizona and it's owned by the Vatican. Also to my knowledge, the only problem that the Church has with the theory is that it reduces man to just another animal--which is absurd and is the basis for the Chesterton's arguement. In fact, if we are created in God's image, the claim itself is an insult at best and a lie told by the devil at worst.

12/16/2012 new

I was off CM for a bit and so am just seeing this topic. Fascinating and lively discussion - I got my undergraduate degree in biology and love science. As someone who doesn't discount the theory of evolution, both on the micro- and macro- level, and considers herself to be an orthodox Catholic, I've enjoyed reading the posts. But as a catechist who works in high school ministry I did want to get back to the original posting. Liberacion, do you know where exactly he was feeling this conflict, or why he felt that the theory as taught to him in class by his teacher was automatically opposed to his attending Church?


I feel like the place to go would be to talk not only about what the Church believes about evolution itself, but also talk about how we as Catholics interpret Scripture and how this may differ from the fundamentalist interpretation proposed by some of our Protestant brothers and sisters. As David said above, also talk about the contributions that Church has given to the study of science and how it is not opposed to reason. It sounds like this is a young man who is not afraid to ask the tough questions - I've had these types of kids in youth group and they (and their questions) are a joy - but you have to harness that energy and direct it toward studying what the Church teaches and not letting them abandon the Church. If your friend doesn't feel equipped to answer, do they know someone with solid knowledge of Church teaching that could sit down and talk with him (i.e. their priest, a youth minister...etc?) Keep us posted!

12/16/2012 new

As someone said before in this topic this is an easy question. Stop me if you heard this before.

One day a lad and his friends found a tall, old tree lying on the ground next to a stream in the forest. One boy asked another, "When this tree fell with no one around was there sound made?" One gave this answer. "Yes, the by law of physics in this universe that has time, space, and energy a sound was made upon the falling of this tree AND No, no sound was made because God could have put it there this morning for us to find. With no witnesses, there is no proof. Think about it.


The reasoning is that faith can move mountains. Lewis and Clark could have been transversing the Bitterroot Mountains and be men of faith gloryifing God doing so. God could have taken that faith and moved the last mountain range in their path and thrown it in the sea knowing no one that had seen that range would ever return to that spot and notice the missing peaks. It is quite a story of them in the snow what is now Idaho.

About the Big Bang Theory. That is easy too. Without time, there is no space. Without space, there is no time. Without time or space there is no energy to transfer, no mass to move. Thus the Big Bang was the incorporation of time and space into the universe. Okay, that has been said before by others, but I thought of that as a lad in grades school. So what exists without time and space? Easy, a universe with the three spatial directions. Don't waste your time contemplating if x, y, or z was first. With no time, space, mass, energy that 3-D universe was completely filled and empty. Trinity comes to mind. Wait a minute, even with time and space present, that 3-D only universe is still existing or bluntly as existed and will always exist. The age of the universe is a big lie; we cannot know when it started, just that it did. And that space/time will be gone too eventually. One more thing about dimensions; who is to say that a dimension cannot pop in-and-out of existence. Thought, emotions, love cannot be explained by the four dimensions, thus there are higher dimensions. Do you not feel like a new creation when you forgive or love? Who's to say you do not bring into existence a new dimension when you do?

In summary:

I believe though I do not see.

PS If your son still won't believe, then contact me about viewing a one-hour show on youtube that proves blackholes, neutron stars and such are make believe (these guys can show in th lab 17 characteritics of "neutron stars") so to illustrate to your son that science folks can get it wrong too. Before you guys call me cooky, you believe some guy can bring you back from the dead? Give yourself one hour of time and you will see many lies uncovered by the simple truth of plama and electricity. Remember, this post is here to help a youngster come back to Mass.

12/16/2012 new

(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said: I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore...
(Quote) Liberacion-894835 said:

I have a very close friend whose 14-year old son, an altar boy does not go to church anymore unless they can explain to him the theory of evolution. She said his son believes in what his teacher taught in the class. How safe would our children be in public schools that teaches evolution and the teacher happens to be a non-Catholic and believes in this theory.

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Hi everyone.. I just came did a google search.. Personally I do not believe in the current the theory of evolution being taught in public schools as one species continually evolving into another.. .. I am a science major and have studied biology and chemistry. Children must know that this Big Bang theory was all from God.. That is what is left out in the public schools.. And it is sad.. As a parent assure your child that God created everything and even if it happened through a series of evolutionary changes, it was God that was the driving force. Really there is not much evidence on species changing into another species .. ALSO

My understanding is that the Catholic Church did not want to have another conflict with science as it did with Galileo when he said the earth was not the center of the universe Since that time and now we know the Sun is the center of the Solar system the Catholic church is very careful on claiming any scientific dogma as against the church... Check here for more info. if you have time.

We are certain as Catholics that God created us .. there was a first cause and a first man and woman. We just don't know when and exactly all thed etails .. and may never know .. God Bless you as you try to reach out to your son.. He should not lose his Catholic faith over a simple theory that is not proven.. God Bless Kathleen Praying

en.wikipedia.org

Concerning the doctrine on creation, Ludwig Ott in his Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma identifies the following points as essential beliefs of the Catholic faith ("De Fide"):[48]

All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. God was moved by His Goodness to create the world. The world was created for the Glorification of God. The Three Divine Persons are one single, common Principle of the Creation. God created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity. God has created a good world. The world had a beginning in time. God alone created the world. God keeps all created things in existence. God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created.

[edit] Catholic schools and evolution

As in other countries, Catholic schoolsin the United States teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. They teach the fact that evolution occurs and the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the scientific theorythat explains why evolution occurs. This is the same evolution curriculum that secular schools teach. Bishop DiLorenzo of Richmond, chair of the Committee on Science and Human Values in a December 2004 letter sent to all U.S. bishops: "... Catholic schools should continue teaching evolution as a scientific theory backed by convincing evidence. At the same time, Catholic parents whose children are in public schools should ensure that their children are also receiving appropriate catechesis at home and in the parish on God as Creator. Students should be able to leave their biology classes, and their courses in religious instruction, with an integrated understanding of the means God chose to make us who we are."[

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