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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Nov 17th 2012 new
Thanks Rae-

I was able to access the website but I couldn't use any of the links. I ended up going to Amazon and purchased a book she has written which seemed very relevant for me at this point in my life. It's called "Life Issues, Medical Choices: Questions and Answers for Catholics".
Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Rae-242317 said: Hi Julie, Several others have given you good advice already. I'm going to focus on your questi...
(Quote) Rae-242317 said: Hi Julie,

Several others have given you good advice already. I'm going to focus on your questions regarding "why not" IVF and other fertility options.

Dr. Janet E. Smith (www.janetesmith.org is a superb resource. I've listened to her in person, and bought her "Sexual Common Sense" CDs. The 5th one (can be purchased separately as a CD or cheaper yet, mp3 file)is called "05 Reproductive Technologies: Why Not"

She goes through papal documents, catechism, etc, and makes it very easy to follow. She takes some very theologically dense works like JPII's "Love and Responsibility" and breaks it down, and applies it to current technologies.

Bravo for posting honestly, and my prayers are offered for your continued communion with the Church.

Pax et bonum!
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Seconding what Rae said, particularly regarding prayers. Dr. Janet E. Smith is an excellent resource... Investigating Rachael's Vineyard is also good. The fact is, one of the problems with IVF is that destruction of embryos (before or after implantation) is unavoidable. To your point on God giving us the intelligence to solve scientific problems: yes, He does, but again I would go back to Dr. Smith's talks as they explain far better than I can, how certain types of fertility treatments constitute a misuse of our God-given intelligence and other gifts.

Nov 17th 2012 new

Hi Julie! theheart

Thank you Anne Marie!!! I agree with Anne Marie that Rachel's Vineyard could help you begin to deal with the grief for the lost child. It breaks my hear to hear your story and --Rachel's Vineyard does have very good excellent retreats here at three Rivers. That would be a good step. One of my therapist friends went on the retreat to check out the format and said it was excellent. Really Beautiful. You are brave to share here. May God heal your heart and heal the pain of this loss! He is so merciful. hug

As to using artificial means to conceive, I am not an expert but I believe it goes against Natural Law. Contraception goes against Natural Law by obstructing Nature the way God created it and the inverse is true as well. When we contemplate the beauty of creation in all of His detailed handiwork and when we let His creation through Nature speak to us of Him and His beauty and Jesus as the True principal of Wisdom and Light, it becomes easier to grasp. Your deeper knowledge of Biology would probably enhance this kind of contemplation. He made the bacteria in the soil to prepare for fertilizing a seed to react with enzymes as a seed is growing...or as debris is decaying.. and so many natural processes in Nature are so awesome.

I always felt in my heart that I could never have sex using birth control as a barrier or obstruction to what God has created. That was for me how I felt in my heart. So conversely I eventually began to understand the other side based on understanding Natural Law. Studying Philosophy has helped me tremendously. Aquinas, Augustine and some Catholic Philosophy could help you see this side and then help you to reconcile this issue. This faith that we have is based on faith and reason and you will be pleased to see that it is based on sound principals.

Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Julie-909449 said: I wrote a whole spiel on this last night on my iphone but lost it. Not such a bad thing because I...
(Quote) Julie-909449 said:

I wrote a whole spiel on this last night on my iphone but lost it. Not such a bad thing because I can be more concise. I haven't ever been able to have children without "medical" help. The only time that I know I was pregnant naturally, I miscarried at 11 weeks. Let me preface this by saying that I'm a biologist and the cause of my infertility was manmade in my mind. For my 1st successful pregnancy I used the 1st drug of choice. For the 2nd, I tried unsuccessfully for 5 years and resorted to IVF (a sin I know-except it was OK'd for my sister-confusing). I did extensive research and had many consultants (the 1st IVF didn't work so I told the doctor that if he didn't do what I wanted, I'd go somewhere else). The horror of it was that I became pregnant with triplets. If I was going to carry them fullterm (they all would've died otherwise), the doctors told me (and I still believe them) that I couldn't have 3 (2 at the most) without endangering my life and all of the babies' lives certainly. I did not think I'd be that successful but I was wrong. I ended up having a reduction (a "nicer" way of saying abortion-it's all the same) and had twins who I love fiercely, as well as my older son) but I also wonder about the child I killed.


My questions are how do I resolve this within myself and with the Church? And why or why not is it OK to have any manmade medical intervention at all? Personally, I think God gave us the intelligence to solve medical problems. I also think pro-abortionists will have more and more ethical problems as science advances. I'm incredibly conflicted. I'd appreciate any insights.

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You've already taken those first steps in "coming home". Just try to take one step at a time to avoid being overwhelmed. What you're trying to accomplish will take time, but the important thing is that you've already started. Your problems didn't come all at once, nor will the total solution. But..as you progress, things will fall into place and you'll make better sense out of it.

You seem to want to reconcile yourself with your Savior (and the Church, of which you are a part). Perhaps before you receive the sacrament of reconciliation, you might have a conversation with your pastor or parish priest. The most immediate need you have is to get you back on track the rest of the way. If the pastor doesn't have the expertise, he should be able to guide you to a spiritual director to help. I'm sure you'll find a warm welcome in coming back to the Church. It's a cause for rejoicing. There's no sin that can't be forgiven.

Donna and Marian have already suggested Rachel's Vineyard, an organization that can help with your healing. As much as reconciliation is needed to regain the state of grace, you will still probably feel some mental anguish or guilt. You want to shed that burden. Receiving Communion as often as possible will bolster your spiritual strength. A healthy prayer life and meditation will bring more comfort to you.

Marian has explained what happens during the IVF process. Destruction of embryos equates to the destruction of human life. Don't beat yourself up over it -- it's history. You can probably find some good Catholic background about this on the 'net.

You are correct about science being ahead of ethics. This is a problem because of rapidly developing and changing technology. Ethicists just can't keep up. There are some definite moral, constant principles that are constant and will not change. Again, some research based upon reliable Catholic sources will give you a foundation in this area.

There are many people who have fertility problems, and are in an emotional turmoil about not being able to have a child. This is an area of conflict -- personal desire versus doing the right thing. There is so much to be learned by all of us but in the meantime, we make decisions based upon the best moral advice available from reliable sources.

With the approaching season of Advent, it will be an excellent time to reflect on Our Savior's birth -- a special Child Who was born to be crucified for all of us.

People have brought their problems and concerns to the CM forums. Obviously, you are seeing how supportive others are. We're not dwelling on your past because it's exactly that, and it can't be changed. What's important is where you are now and how to lay your fears and concerns to rest. You'll find plenty of help right here.

Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Julie-909449 said: Thanks Rae- I was able to access the website but I couldn't use any of the links. I ended up...
(Quote) Julie-909449 said: Thanks Rae-

I was able to access the website but I couldn't use any of the links. I ended up going to Amazon and purchased a book she has written which seemed very relevant for me at this point in my life. It's called "Life Issues, Medical Choices: Questions and Answers for Catholics".
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Julie, There ae4w so many like you and so many returning who need healing. Welcome back and May God bless all of your searching and efforts. I think there is a way you can spiritually baptize your lost child as well, and this would be something you can learn more about perhaps from Rachels Vineyard.

Nov 18th 2012 new

How about a pause now -- today is Julie's birthday!!! We wish you the best and hope your day was blessed and happy. May you have many more....

Nov 18th 2012 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: How about a pause now -- today is Julie's birthday!!! We wish you the best and hope your day wa...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

How about a pause now -- today is Julie's birthday!!! We wish you the best and hope your day was blessed and happy. May you have many more....

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Yes, Happy Birthday, Julie!Happy Birthday! rose hug Somehow, this seems very existential though to be posting a birthday greeting in a thread which has been moved to a room which doesn't seem to officially exist.eyebrow

Nov 19th 2012 new
I eyebrow

I was wondering where that forum was located too.
Nov 19th 2012 new

(Quote) Julie-909449 said: A quick thought which makes it worse. It wasn't an impulse. It was very planned out. For years even....
(Quote) Julie-909449 said: A quick thought which makes it worse. It wasn't an impulse. It was very planned out. For years even.

I don't know if it means anything that I wasn't practicing at the time. I know very little about doctrine. I wonder how many Catholics are out there like me.
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Unfortunately, Julie, the vast majority of Catholics are like that, not really knowing much about the faith they profess.

Over the last 50 years, the Church has done a terrible job in this regard. The only thing that saved the Church before that were the truly Catholic schools. My experience growing up as far as instruction for adults was that most Sundays the sermon was nothing more than an almost ceaseless begging for money.

On that score, even in the "heyday" the Church was and still is an utter failure at teaching priests how to preach and give effective sermons and homilies. They should send all candidates to Protestant seminaries to learn that skill.

Ask yourself, how many times have you heard a really informative sermon or homily about sin, hell, the devil, abortion, contraception, confession (excuse me we should use the more modern innocuous term, reconciliation), etc.. Note the pattern. On the whole all controversial or non feel good subjects are avoided like the plague. Of if they are addressed, they are done so in such scholarly and confusing ways, that most people have no clue what the point was.

And then the Bishops hold their heads and can't understand why the majority of Catholics vote the way they do. They wonder why Catholics don't understand why abortion, contraception is wrong or why most Catholics don't feel it necessary to go to Confession, We have all not suddenly turned into saints, more likely the contrary. But those lines for communion are long but not those for the confessional You can count those on your ten fingers and have too many left over. Over the course of a year it is usually the same handful that go, time after time.

One can only conclude that many sins of sacrilege are being committed every Sunday. Yet not a peep from the pulpit to speak of, might upset the "faithful" you know.

Nov 19th 2012 new
Oh Paul-

Religiously, I've had all the perspectives. I was raised a Catholic. My dad is an unpracticing Methodist and my Granny (paternal) a rabid Pentecostal who thought Catholics were the anti-Christ. Believe me, Catholicism is (in my opinion) ultimately the most pure religion. The Catholic Church doesn't profess perfection. Anyhow, I've been exposed to Catholicism, Protestantism, agnosticism and atheism. I always came back because it made more sense to me. I've found the Catholic Church to make the most sense and also to be the most inclusive without compromising principles. I found the Lutheran church to be the closest to the Catholic Church but they were too willing, in my opinion, to sacrifice values to keep members. The Catholic Church isn't like that. For what it's worth, I'm a biologist, so hopefully, I'm pragmatic in my thinking.
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