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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: To "coerse" a business owner to such an extent that they will lose their business, their li...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

To "coerse" a business owner to such an extent that they will lose their business, their livelihood, and all that they have built over the years, is to effectively "force" them to comply. It is a distinction without a difference. I can't believe that you are seriously making the argument that they are not being "forced".


Ed

--hide--


I understand you rolling your eyes and all, but the whole thing boils down to the fact that there remains a choice. In this situation, a person can CHOOSE to keep his business and burn incense before Caesar's idol, so to speak, if he thinks the mandates are coercing him to do grave evil...or he can CHOOSE to give up his business if he believes that the HHS mandates are coercive toward grave evil...or he can CHOOSE to allow the insurance under-writers to write what they want in the policies, and leave it up to his individual employees either to be moral or immoral (i.e., subsidiarity). One can tolerate a lesser evil in order for a greater good to come about. In this case, there isn't even a CERTAIN grave evil committed yet.

The fact is, employers who profess to be Catholic have been signed up for insurance plans which cover abortifacients to some degree already, even before the HHS mandates. The only difference now is that the abortifacients are supposed to be written into the policies with no co-pay. So, it sounds like employers who profess to be Catholic have been stealing cookies from the cookie jar behind the scenes and are now protesting being offered the whole jar of cookies.

So, let's stop with the victim mentality...and be grown-ups. No one is going to be forced to comply, the capacity for choice will remain.

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: To "coerse" a business owner to such an extent that they will lose their business, their li...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

To "coerse" a business owner to such an extent that they will lose their business, their livelihood, and all that they have built over the years, is to effectively "force" them to comply. It is a distinction without a difference. I can't believe that you are seriously making the argument that they are not being "forced".


Ed

--hide--


Hi, I know I wrote one may tolerate a lesser evil for a greater good to come about, and that is true, but not what I meant to write. I meant to write that one may tolerate a lesser evil for fear of a commission of greater evil to occur.

Sorry about that...hope I didn't test your patience too much with my mistake.

Nov 28th 2012 new

I'm glad you're not working for the Obama administration... At least, I hope you are not. Your ideas of coercion and force are unbelievable.


Ed

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:It's going to cost the Dept of HHS a lot of money to force people in this regard...since th...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

It's going to cost the Dept of HHS a lot of money to force people in this regard...since they'll have to send representatives to take bodily control of these insurers and business owners to make them act against their wills. If that's not what you're talking about, then you're not talking about force, but rather coersion.

If people submit to coercive legislation mandating evil, then they are choosing by their own wills to commit evil and can't hide as victims behind the "law."

So, again, if you're not talking about representatives of the Dept. of HHS being sent to take over the bodies of insurers and business owners, then you're not talking about force...hence my statement "no one is going to be forced to pay for abortifacients or sterilizations."

--hide--

HHS is not the enforcing agency. The IRS is and they are hiring 15,000 new agents just to "collect the taxes" that are nor really taxes but fines for non-compliance. Even you as an individual could be in non-compliance, if you do not have approved insurance coverage from an employer and don't buy the insurance yourself. And ALL, without exception, insurance (whether bought from an insurance company or self insured) must include coverage for these "women's health issues" that have nothing to do with health.

Nov 28th 2012 new

Typical Pro-Abort.

Nov 28th 2012 new

Amen!


(Us) Knowing is not enough!

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: You have no control as to how your tax dollars are spent, and therefore do not share in...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



You have no control as to how your tax dollars are spent, and therefore do not share in the evil of the proposed actions (i.e., abortifacients for preventing completed pregnancies and sterilizations for preventing conceived pregnancies).

As for Catholic Hospitals being required to perform abortions, they're not. Hospitals which serve the general public are only compelled to do so in states which choose to uphold the HHS mandates and accept federal funding. However, no one is suggesting that the department of Health and Human Services is going to send a representative to every physician's elbow to force his hand to write scripts for abortifacients, or to every surgeon's elbow to force his hand in performing sterilizations. Those acts will be up to the free will of every physician and surgeon. Perhaps if Catholic Hospitals had never taken federal funds for operating costs, they wouldn't be squaking now about being up a specific creek with no paddle.

Whether insurance providers must write policies including coverage for abortion inducing drugs and sterilization procedures has nothing to do with people who do not choose to pay in. Perhaps if people stopped enabling such policies (by paying into some health plan), these things would stop. I hear lots of people moaning that they need health insurance, because with their 150,000 dollar house, two new cars, 42 inch flat screen TV, portable DVD players, ipods, ipads, xbox, gym membership and yearly vacation, they are living paycheck to paycheck barely getting by. Well, maybe if people lived within their stations, they could afford to be seen by a physician (out of pocket) without health insurance.

--hide--


Your position, much like others you have posted, is based on circular reasoning which I have defined below.


Circular reasoning
(also known as paradoxical thinking[citation needed] or circular logic), is a logical fallacy in which "the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with".[1] The individual components of a circular argument will sometimes be logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true, and will not lack relevance. Circular logic cannot prove a conclusion because, if the conclusion is doubted, the premise which leads to it will also be doubted.[2] Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning.[3]on is based on circular logic.


America is still a democracy which means the American citizen has influence in government. You often amaze me, Chelsea, with your condescension and arrogance in these posts. I would be a bit more patient with your opinions if they were not presented as dogma, especially since I am unaware of your education or experience that would support your position that you have all the answers on any given subject.


-Elizabeth



Nov 28th 2012 new

Yes, they are.


AG Holder's wife is a part owner of a clinic that does "terminations"


Sebilious is the poster child for "Pro-Choice Catholics" and had her political career in part funded by George Tiller.


These people are ALL ABOUT ABORTION! It is there thing, and their top Foreign Policy goal has been the exportation of Abortion, the LBGT Agenda and birth control. They are living Margaret Sanger's dream (with a dash of Lenin/Hitler thrown in!)


Hugs and Kisses!


Andy

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: HHS is not the enforcing agency. The IRS is and they are hiring 15,000 new agents just to...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

HHS is not the enforcing agency. The IRS is and they are hiring 15,000 new agents just to "collect the taxes" that are nor really taxes but fines for non-compliance. Even you as an individual could be in non-compliance, if you do not have approved insurance coverage from an employer and don't buy the insurance yourself. And ALL, without exception, insurance (whether bought from an insurance company or self insured) must include coverage for these "women's health issues" that have nothing to do with health.

--hide--


Paul, I have absolutely no disagreement with you on this that I can see.

Nov 28th 2012 new

Perhaps you would make a good lawyer for the Mafia.


After all, the Mafia doesn't force businesses to pay "protection money" to them. They just promise to break the legs of the business owner or burn down his business is he doesn't comply. By your thinking, this is just simple coercion..... Unbelievable! I hope that you never get into a position of real power in any sort of organization.


Ed

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