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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Nov 28th 2012 new

To the degree of their stupidity, it is willful ignorance. There might as well have been ash from the crematoria settling on their VWs, BMWs and Mercedes Benz.

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said: Your position, much like others you have posted, is based on circular reasoning ...
(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said:


Your position, much like others you have posted, is based on circular reasoning which I have defined below.


Circular reasoning
(also known as paradoxical thinking[citation needed] or circular logic), is a logical fallacy in which "the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with".[1] The individual components of a circular argument will sometimes be logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true, and will not lack relevance. Circular logic cannot prove a conclusion because, if the conclusion is doubted, the premise which leads to it will also be doubted.[2]Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning.[3]on is based on circular logic.


America is still a democracy which means the American citizen has influence in government. You often amaze me, Chelsea, with your condescension and arrogance in these posts. I would be a bit more patient with your opinions if they were not presented as dogma, especially since I am unaware of your education or experience that would support your position that you have all the answers on any given subject.


-Elizabeth



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Hi, Elizabeth,

Thanks for addressing what you see as my fallacious logic. I really appreciate your effort in getting back to me...especially with such defined results!

This is my lacking, I'm sure, but I reviewed the post in question and based upon the standard of your definition, I did not see how it applied. If you would not mind helping me out, could you demonstrate where the circular reasoning lies? I'm not saying you have to post it in public, you're welcome to send me a private message. Thanks again!

I do disagree with you as to whether the USA is a democracy. A democracy is not made up of elected representatives such as we have in the legislature and executive office (i.e., president).

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Perhaps you would make a good lawyer for the Mafia. After all, the Mafia doesn't
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Perhaps you would make a good lawyer for the Mafia.


After all, the Mafia doesn't force businesses to pay "protection money" to them. They just promise to break the legs of the business owner or burn down his business is he doesn't comply. By your thinking, this is just simple coercion..... Unbelievable! I hope that you never get into a position of real power in any sort of organization.


Ed

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OK

Nov 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Karis-410918 said: NO THEY ARE NOT. YOU CANNOT JUDGE WHAT IS IN VOTER HEARTS, INCLUDING YOURS, PERHAPS!
(Quote) Karis-410918 said:



NO THEY ARE NOT. YOU CANNOT JUDGE WHAT IS IN VOTER HEARTS, INCLUDING YOURS, PERHAPS!




But, they still supported a man who loves abortion. Can you vote for Hitler because you work for a company that make Panzers? My point is that anyones niche politics are outweighed by the evil pulmogated by the Obama Admin


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Nov 28th 2012 new
(Quote) James-17080 said: Hi David et alia,Looks like I might have to answer to you for "picking" on Joanna....
(Quote) James-17080 said:




Hi David et alia,

Looks like I might have to answer to you for "picking" on Joanna.

Then again, consider how that might turn out You know how cranky and antsy ol' James gets when he gets going.

David, I bet you're in love with Joanna. Joanna, does that blow my chances for a date with you? David, what shall it be? Swords? Pistols at dawn?



Jim ☺

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Yes, alas, David is spoken for weeping and I cry every night in my pillow. The blow is only softened by the knowledge that he is happy with his one true love. heart She must be an amazing woman and you guys should be jealous! I know I am. {{{sniff}}} sad

James, yes, we know how cranky you can get . . . must be that cold weather in Chicago, you have to do something to stay warm and prodding David duck must give you great warmth and joy. Here's a hint, it really doesn't bother him, he just loves to be a mischievous stir the pot! Its getting cold! A date with you certainly wouldn't be boring, but with our different points of view we may kill each other before the night is over. THAT would be one for the CM books! laughing
Nov 28th 2012 new
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: You have no control as to how your tax dollars are spent, and therefore do not share in the evil of t...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



You have no control as to how your tax dollars are spent, and therefore do not share in the evil of the proposed actions (i.e., abortifacients for preventing completed pregnancies and sterilizations for preventing conceived pregnancies).

As for Catholic Hospitals being required to perform abortions, they're not. Hospitals which serve the general public are only compelled to do so in states which choose to uphold the HHS mandates and accept federal funding. However, no one is suggesting that the department of Health and Human Services is going to send a representative to every physician's elbow to force his hand to write scripts for abortifacients, or to every surgeon's elbow to force his hand in performing sterilizations. Those acts will be up to the free will of every physician and surgeon. Perhaps if Catholic Hospitals had never taken federal funds for operating costs, they wouldn't be squaking now about being up a specific creek with no paddle.

Whether insurance providers must write policies including coverage for abortion inducing drugs and sterilization procedures has nothing to do with people who do not choose to pay in. Perhaps if people stopped enabling such policies (by paying into some health plan), these things would stop. I hear lots of people moaning that they need health insurance, because with their 150,000 dollar house, two new cars, 42 inch flat screen TV, portable DVD players, ipods, ipads, xbox, gym membership and yearly vacation, they are living paycheck to paycheck barely getting by. Well, maybe if people lived within their stations, they could afford to be seen by a physician (out of pocket) without health insurance.

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Chelsea, Catholic Hospitals and clinics take federal money so they can provide services to the poor. As soon as a pregnant woman shows up demanding an abortion from one of these institutions and she is turned away there will be severe monetary repercussions. The Catholic Church has already closed it's adoption doors in states that legalized same-sex marriage when they were going to be forced by the State to adopt children to same-sex couples. (DC, IL, MA). The position of those States is if the Catholic Church provides services to the general public they had to abide by all of the laws within that state. The Healthcare law will do the same. The administration has already stated that if an organization provides services to the general public, they are not "religious" in nature and therefor not exempt. So in essence if a Catholic organization wants to avoid the Obama Healthcare mandate, they can only serve other Catholics.

And everyone who responds to Chelsea, she is entitled to her opinion and position. If you wish to point out her flawed logic and/or reasoning, by all means do so, but do not attack her or make it personal.
Nov 28th 2012 new
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: It's going to cost the Dept of HHS a lot of money to force people in this regard...since they'...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



It's going to cost the Dept of HHS a lot of money to force people in this regard...since they'll have to send representatives to take bodily control of these insurers and business owners to make them act against their wills. If that's not what you're talking about, then you're not talking about force, but rather coersion.

If people submit to coercive legislation mandating evil, then they are choosing by their own wills to commit evil and can't hide as victims behind the "law."

So, again, if you're not talking about representatives of the Dept. of HHS being sent to take over the bodies of insurers and business owners, then you're not talking about force...hence my statement "no one is going to be forced to pay for abortifacients or sterilizations."

--hide--


It will be the IRS who issues the monetary penalties. If you have ever had an encounter with the IRS you would not be so quick as to think that it is impossible. The burden of proof is on us, the taxpayer or business owner to prove we are following the mandate. It may take a few years for the laws to shake out into Regulations, but it will happen. Keep an eye on the Federal Register which is where public comments are sought for the implementation of Regulations.
Nov 28th 2012 new

Imagine the uproar that would ensue in this situation...


A public bus crashes in front of a Catholic hospital. Dozens of people are critically injured. In order to avoid the HHS mandates, someone from the Catholic hospital would have to first inventory all of the injured (assuming that the injured could speak) to see which are Catholic and which are not Catholic. The Catholic victims would be admitted to the hospital for immediate treatment. All of the rest of the victims would be left to fend for themselves or die in the street until an ambulance from a non-religious or public-owned hospital could arrive to take them away for treatment.


This is sick and ridiculous. This is Obamacare with the HHS mandates.


Ed

Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) Laura-56149 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: Hi Laura et alia,I don't ...
(Quote) Laura-56149 said:

Quote:
James-17080 said:




Hi Laura et alia,

I don't lead anybody astray. I've been around here a long time too, maybe longer than you. I started out as a Bush supporter (Lord have mercy!), and then watched as Bush did one stupid thing after another. A total screw-up.

Let me ask you this question: Do you think that I and others who voted for Bush (twice!) are guilty of a mortal sin?

James ☺




Well, since you have been around so long you would have to agree that during Bush's era you heard plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth and out of line name calling toward a sitting President. I don't consider him a total screw-up. He kept this country safe after 9-11 which he doesn't seem to get any credit for. He reinstated the Mexico City Policy which Obama rescinded 2 days into office. Bush had nothing to do with Planned Parenthood. Our current president is in their pocket and promised many of the things he put into Obamacare, that is in contradiction with Catholic teaching, to them. Bush put as many restrictions against abortion and embryonic stem cell research that he was able to. He is a decent and upstanding Christian man and I have a lot of respect for his morals and family values. President Bush never made me fear that my religious freedom was in jeapordy. He never forcedme to pay for someone else's "choice" to have an abortion or take contraception or have a sterilization procedure. He didn't agree to have the very meaning of marriage revoked and gay marriage a new normal. I could afford gas for my car, health insurance, taxes. My life was stable and safe under President Bush and it has been hell under Obama. I no longer feel safe, many of my friends and family are in fear for their financial futures and religious freedom.
If you remember correctly, congress was completely behind going to war. Obama and Pelosi were on the committees running Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. They made a bundle on the downfall of the housing market. Yes, Bush made economic mistakes but the Democrats were just as much a part of the problem. Any president that 9-11 happened to would have had problems. Can you imagine if Obama had been president? He couldn't or wouldn't even handle Benghazi properly.
So, no, voting for Bush was not a mortal sin. He did not stand on intrinsic evil as his platform for President.

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Hi Laura et alia,

Your Saturday Evening Post description of W is touching. One could only wonder what kind of scene Norman Rockwell would have painted.

Permit me to ask you some questions. When did Bush kill or capture bin Ladin? Please review for us the evidence for going to war in Iraq. Please tell us how many of those evil WMDs we found when we invaded Iraq. Please tell us who finally got us out of Iraq. Who was Valerie Plame, and what happened to her? Ever hear of a guy named Scooter Libby? Is "Scooter" a Christian name? Who was he, and what happened to him? How many soldiers were killed in Iraq? Afghanistan? How many contractors were killed? Please review for us the accounting of the Katrina disaster. Is lying about WMDs as an excuse to go to war a veniel sin? A mortal one? How was the accounting of these wars handled? I mean, were they put on the books, or kept off the ledger sheets, since a certain Veep said that a 1980s US Prexy "proved" that "deficits don't matter". Do they matter now? If so, why? How much did the Iraq and Afghanistan wars cost us, so far? (you may round your answer to the nearest trillion dollars). Since you don't consider Bush a total screw-up (your words), do you consider him a partial screw-up? Too bad W didn't keep this nation safe on 9.11, right? You write, "My life was stable and safe under President Bush and it has been hell under Obama. " Whose fault is that, and why? (please give details). Did your life become hell on January 20th, 2009, when Obama took office? Or before? Or after? In fact, I do remember correctly, and the Congress was not completely behind W in his Iraq war plans. In fact, my congresswoman was not. Yes, I can imagine what would have happened if Obama was President on 9.11. Benghazi? I'm not sure how Obama should have handled Benghazi. The four Americans killed there is indeed tragic, and yes, security should have been stronger. But considering all the other screw-ups we've had since 2000, this is pretty small stuff. I can understand why you and perhaps others here might want to make it a federal case, however. Who is Scott Brown? What happened to Scott Brown? Who is Elizabeth Warren? Ever hear of the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau? What happened when Warren was nominated to that post? Why?

Really, what did Bush stand for?

James eagerly and respectfully looks forward to your detailed answers.

Sweet dreams!

James ☺

Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) Laura-56149 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: Hi Katherine,Nice to meet you. Ok...
(Quote) Laura-56149 said:

Quote:
James-17080 said:



Hi Katherine,

Nice to meet you. Okay, that's enough small talk.

It doesn't matter any more. Romney lost, and that's it. Geesh, the election was over almost 3 weeks ago, and there's still the wailing and gnashing of teeth. I've been here since 2003, and I haven't seen anything like this.

James ☺





Don't try and lead people astray, James. I've been around quite awhile myself. I remember years and years of President Bush haters. The scandalous name calling of a sitting President was absolutely appalling. In comparison, the conservatives are pretty respectful of Obama. I'm sure even you can understand the upset considering the intrinsically evil platform he ran on. It matters! Many of us won't get over it until he is out of office in four years.

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Why Laura, I'm truly shocked that you would think that I would lead anyone astray.

James ☺

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