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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: Chelsea, Catholic Hospitals and clinics take federal money so they can provide services to the ...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

Chelsea, Catholic Hospitals and clinics take federal money so they can provide services to the poor. As soon as a pregnant woman shows up demanding an abortion from one of these institutions and she is turned away there will be severe monetary repercussions. The Catholic Church has already closed it's adoption doors in states that legalized same-sex marriage when they were going to be forced by the State to adopt children to same-sex couples. (DC, IL, MA). The position of those States is if the Catholic Church provides services to the general public they had to abide by all of the laws within that state. The Healthcare law will do the same. The administration has already stated that if an organization provides services to the general public, they are not "religious" in nature and therefor not exempt. So in essence if a Catholic organization wants to avoid the Obama Healthcare mandate, they can only serve other Catholics.

And everyone who responds to Chelsea, she is entitled to her opinion and position. If you wish to point out her flawed logic and/or reasoning, by all means do so, but do not attack her or make it personal.
--hide--

Not just provide their services to Catholics only, but every employee must also be Catholic, no exceptions.

But if they employ only Catholics, they must be very careful that they are not violating non-discrimination laws as they apply to employment. They could be exempt from those laws, but the line, in many cases, is very thin and easy to unwittingly step over.

A Catholic Hospital who employed only Catholics and serviced only Catholics has another trap. Most state's have laws requiring a hospital with an emergency room to service anyone with a true emergency. So if they obey that law and provided emergency service to a non-catholic, they would no longer be exempt from the HHS rules.

The point I am making is that there are so many legal booby traps. Its like putting a person into a maze. If they successfully maneuver through the maze they come out free and clear. But if they choose the wrong turns they will end up dead. Then as the person progresses through the maze and selects a correct turn, you block that path to force them back where they have to make a wrong choice and you keep doing that until they die.

That is the legal framework that has been created over a long time. Not necessarily planned with that purpose in mind. Nevertheless, that is the legal minefield that exists.

Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: I'd say the fact over 50 percent of self-identified Catholics voted for Obama shows just how poor cat...
(Quote) John-220051 said: I'd say the fact over 50 percent of self-identified Catholics voted for Obama shows just how poor catechesis and Catholics spiritual formation has been since Vatican II.
--hide--


So, you're blaming Vatican II? There was a Leftward movement in the Church forever. It was the 1960s and the Global Leftward movement, in particular the vector public education has taken. Add to that the Liberal Media and hacks that exploit a population that thinks they are well-informed.


The last 50 years of public education have greatly weakened the Constitution of the United States, by ignorance.

Nov 29th 2012 new
(Quote) James-17080 said: Hi Laura et alia,Your Saturday Evening Post description of W is touching. One could only w...
(Quote) James-17080 said:




Hi Laura et alia,

Your Saturday Evening Post description of W is touching. One could only wonder what kind of scene Norman Rockwell would have painted.

Permit me to ask you some questions. When did Bush kill or capture bin Ladin? Please review for us the evidence for going to war in Iraq. Please tell us how many of those evil WMDs we found when we invaded Iraq. Please tell us who finally got us out of Iraq. Who was Valerie Plame, and what happened to her? Ever hear of a guy named Scooter Libby? Is "Scooter" a Christian name? Who was he, and what happened to him? How many soldiers were killed in Iraq? Afghanistan? How many contractors were killed? Please review for us the accounting of the Katrina disaster. Is lying about WMDs as an excuse to go to war a veniel sin? A mortal one? How was the accounting of these wars handled? I mean, were they put on the books, or kept off the ledger sheets, since a certain Veep said that a 1980s US Prexy "proved" that "deficits don't matter". Do they matter now? If so, why? How much did the Iraq and Afghanistan wars cost us, so far? (you may round your answer to the nearest trillion dollars). Since you don't consider Bush a total screw-up (your words), do you consider him a partial screw-up? Too bad W didn't keep this nation safe on 9.11, right? You write, "My life was stable and safe under President Bush and it has been hell under Obama. " Whose fault is that, and why? (please give details). Did your life become hell on January 20th, 2009, when Obama took office? Or before? Or after? In fact, I do remember correctly, and the Congress was not completely behind W in his Iraq war plans. In fact, my congresswoman was not. Yes, I can imagine what would have happened if Obama was President on 9.11. Benghazi? I'm not sure how Obama should have handled Benghazi. The four Americans killed there is indeed tragic, and yes, security should have been stronger. But considering all the other screw-ups we've had since 2000, this is pretty small stuff. I can understand why you and perhaps others here might want to make it a federal case, however. Who is Scott Brown? What happened to Scott Brown? Who is Elizabeth Warren? Ever hear of the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau? What happened when Warren was nominated to that post? Why?

Really, what did Bush stand for?

James eagerly and respectfully looks forward to your detailed answers.

Sweet dreams!

James ☺

--hide--


There you go again!!! Four years after Bush, and everything is still Bush's fault? I'm certain in four more years, and eight, you will still repeat that cliche'. All while remaing blind to Obama's failures.

I'm not going to address every little thing you just wrote, as you've been corrected so often by so many in these forums on those issues and it doesn't sink in. But let's see what some of your heroes had to say about some of them. Who else supported the war in Irag?

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

Just Bush? I think not.
Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) Edward-512961 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: Hi Laura et alia,Your Saturday Eve...
(Quote) Edward-512961 said:
Quote:
James-17080 said:




Hi Laura et alia,

Your Saturday Evening Post description of W is touching. One could only wonder what kind of scene Norman Rockwell would have painted.

Permit me to ask you some questions. When did Bush kill or capture bin Ladin? Please review for us the evidence for going to war in Iraq. Please tell us how many of those evil WMDs we found when we invaded Iraq. Please tell us who finally got us out of Iraq. Who was Valerie Plame, and what happened to her? Ever hear of a guy named Scooter Libby? Is "Scooter" a Christian name? Who was he, and what happened to him? How many soldiers were killed in Iraq? Afghanistan? How many contractors were killed? Please review for us the accounting of the Katrina disaster. Is lying about WMDs as an excuse to go to war a veniel sin? A mortal one? How was the accounting of these wars handled? I mean, were they put on the books, or kept off the ledger sheets, since a certain Veep said that a 1980s US Prexy "proved" that "deficits don't matter". Do they matter now? If so, why? How much did the Iraq and Afghanistan wars cost us, so far? (you may round your answer to the nearest trillion dollars). Since you don't consider Bush a total screw-up (your words), do you consider him a partial screw-up? Too bad W didn't keep this nation safe on 9.11, right? You write, "My life was stable and safe under President Bush and it has been hell under Obama. " Whose fault is that, and why? (please give details). Did your life become hell on January 20th, 2009, when Obama took office? Or before? Or after? In fact, I do remember correctly, and the Congress was not completely behind W in his Iraq war plans. In fact, my congresswoman was not. Yes, I can imagine what would have happened if Obama was President on 9.11. Benghazi? I'm not sure how Obama should have handled Benghazi. The four Americans killed there is indeed tragic, and yes, security should have been stronger. But considering all the other screw-ups we've had since 2000, this is pretty small stuff. I can understand why you and perhaps others here might want to make it a federal case, however. Who is Scott Brown? What happened to Scott Brown? Who is Elizabeth Warren? Ever hear of the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau? What happened when Warren was nominated to that post? Why?

Really, what did Bush stand for?

James eagerly and respectfully looks forward to your detailed answers.

Sweet dreams!

James ☺




There you go again!!! Four years after Bush, and everything is still Bush's fault? I'm certain in four more years, and eight, you will still repeat that cliche'. All while remaing blind to Obama's failures.

I'm not going to address every little thing you just wrote, as you've been corrected so often by so many in these forums on those issues and it doesn't sink in. But let's see what some of your heroes had to say about some of them. Who else supported the war in Irag?

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

Just Bush? I think not.
--hide--

There I go again? You sound like Reagan. Yes, I do blame Bush for his screw-ups, because he was the president!

Don't be too certain about my future actions, Edward. You don't know me.

Yes, I know you won't address every little (sic) thing I wrote. That would be uncomfortable, wouldn't it?

Nancy Pelosi was wrong, too.

No, not just Bush. There's Clinton, too. As I understand it, this ugly business of "rendition" started under him. It's interesting and perhaps revealing that those here on CM who like to wave the flag and the Constitution in the faces of others at every opportunity are strangely silent when it comes to this topic. Of course, when I bring it up, I'm denounced as a "liberal". Funny, but I do not recall anything about rendition in the Constitution. There is the requirement of due process, a fact that seems to have been conveniently forgotten by some here.

Cheers,

James

Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: Hi David et alia,Looks like I migh...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:
Quote:
James-17080 said:




Hi David et alia,

Looks like I might have to answer to you for "picking" on Joanna.

Then again, consider how that might turn out You know how cranky and antsy ol' James gets when he gets going.

David, I bet you're in love with Joanna. Joanna, does that blow my chances for a date with you? David, what shall it be? Swords? Pistols at dawn?



Jim ☺




Yes, alas, David is spoken for and I cry every night in my pillow. The blow is only softened by the knowledge that he is happy with his one true love. She must be an amazing woman and you guys should be jealous! I know I am. {{{sniff}}}

James, yes, we know how cranky you can get . . . must be that cold weather in Chicago, you have to do something to stay warm and prodding David must give you great warmth and joy. Here's a hint, it really doesn't bother him, he just loves to be a A date with you certainly wouldn't be boring, but with our different points of view we may kill each other before the night is over. THAT would be one for the CM books!
--hide--

Hi Joanna et alia,

I think I'm in love! ;-)

You're a young lady with class and intelligence. I like! And your intelligence, warmth, and class does match your looks ;-)

Actually, I'm a lot more cranky in hot weather than cold. But don't let that bother you. I promise I won't get mean.

I've known David for some time, both on and off CM, and he is a man of great intelligence and humanity. I have a lot of respect for him.

No, don't worry about us killing each other, it won't happen. I actually work very hard to see the other person's point of view. I know a lot of wizards here might find that hard to believe, but it is true. And perhaps, if you saw the world through my eyes, your views might change some.

Okay, I'd love to go on a date with you!

James :-)

Nov 29th 2012 new

(Quote) Edward-512961 said: (Quote) Joanna-615441 said: James, the purpose of my thread was to get people t...
(Quote) Edward-512961 said:
Quote:
Joanna-615441 said:

James, the purpose of my thread was to get people to thinking about the decision they made. This thread was not meant to be high-jacked for political vitriol which some people here have participated in. I do not know what occurred that has caused you to believe that the bishops (our shepherds) "took a morally dubious position." As a matter of fact your Diocese "unanimously adopted a document that cited their 'vigorous opposition to this unjust and illegal mandate.'" When the administration was seeking the Healthcare Mandate, the USCCB met with administration officials to ensure that the purpose of the healthcare reform was to ensure those who needed coverage could obtain it (poor, low income, etc). It is the role and responsibility of the Church to follow Jesus' mandate to care for the poor, widowed, immigrants etc. The administration assured the Bishop's that there would be a "conscientious clause" that would allow Catholic (and other Christian/Muslim/Jewish etc) denominations the right to withdraw from any part of the healthcare law that went against its teaching. So, initially, some of the bishops were for it. As soon as the mandates and the lack of the conscientious clause was made public, the Church objected and has continued to object. (I have provided links below)



In the Arlington Diocese there was so much information preached from the pulpit and provided (inserts in bulletins, prayer and rosary vigils, special Mass's) for the faithful to be educated on the facts, that if you were from the Arlington Diocese and you voted for Obama, then you either did not attend Mass AT ALL, you slept through Mass or you cooperated in an intrinsic evil with full knowledge that you did. I have friends and family from other diocese who said they received the same information. If you really want to know what the USCCB have expounded, then go to their website. There has been and always will be interlopers in the Church, those who will tell you that "oh, that's okay, God understands," or "you will just have to follow your own conscientious." Well if that persons conscientious is not properly formed (even Timothy McVeigh thought what he was doing was okay by blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma), then it is the duty and responsibility of the Church to correct that priest or bishop who is providing incorrect information to their flocks. AND that person is still guilty of the sin but their culpability level may not be as high. Which is why a generous God has allowed purgatory.



Both administration(s) is/or would be lacking in the area of abortion, however, the position was that the lesser of two evils would have been the Republican's. Clinton initiated the United States Taxpayers paying for abortions in other countries, Bush suspended it, Obama reinstated it within days after his inauguration. While Romney supported abortions in the cases of rape/incest/life of the mother, Obama supports it as a means of contraception.



www.hyscience.com



cnsnews.com



www.usccb.org



I came to a realization last night about the world-wide expansion of abortion. Is it planned that the populations of all societies shall be reduced? We know the answer is yes, as that is the result. Except for Islamic ones, where abortion is illegal and not implemented, yet the population is exploding. Thus in reality, we are exterminating ourselves at a time when Islam is growing and threatening to over-run the globe. Have I realized the plan, or is it "only" an un-intended consequence?
--hide--

It's possible. Ever hear or read about the Georgia Guidestones?

James :-)

Nov 29th 2012 new

I suspect that hospitals participating (in any way) in organ transplants should also fall into the HHS mandate trap. Since a Catholic hospital would not be able to treat or serve non-Catholic patients, they could be barred from giving donated organs from their patient to a non-Catholic hospital that will transplant that organ into a non-Catholic. If these organs could not be donated to a non-Catholic hospital, then why would a non-Catholic hospital provide donated organs to a Catholic hospital?


Ed

Nov 30th 2012 new
(Quote) James-17080 said: There I go again? You sound like Reagan. Yes, I do blame Bush for his screw-ups, because he wa...
(Quote) James-17080 said:



There I go again? You sound like Reagan. Yes, I do blame Bush for his screw-ups, because he was the president!



Don't be too certain about my future actions, Edward. You don't know me.



Yes, I know you won't address every little (sic) thing I wrote. That would be uncomfortable, wouldn't it?



Nancy Pelosi was wrong, too.



No, not just Bush. There's Clinton, too. As I understand it, this ugly business of "rendition" started under him. It's interesting and perhaps revealing that those here on CM who like to wave the flag and the Constitution in the faces of others at every opportunity are strangely silent when it comes to this topic. Of course, when I bring it up, I'm denounced as a "liberal". Funny, but I do not recall anything about rendition in the Constitution. There is the requirement of due process, a fact that seems to have been conveniently forgotten by some here.



Cheers,



James

--hide--


I sound like Reagan? Wow, a compliment!!! I didn't expect that; thank you so much!!

United States Flag
Nov 30th 2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said: Hi Laura et alia,Your Saturday Evening Post description of W is touching. One ...
(Quote) James-17080 said:




Hi Laura et alia,

Your Saturday Evening Post description of W is touching. One could only wonder what kind of scene Norman Rockwell would have painted.

Permit me to ask you some questions. When did Bush kill or capture bin Ladin? Please review for us the evidence for going to war in Iraq. Please tell us how many of those evil WMDs we found when we invaded Iraq. Please tell us who finally got us out of Iraq. Who was Valerie Plame, and what happened to her? Ever hear of a guy named Scooter Libby? Is "Scooter" a Christian name? Who was he, and what happened to him? How many soldiers were killed in Iraq? Afghanistan? How many contractors were killed? Please review for us the accounting of the Katrina disaster. Is lying about WMDs as an excuse to go to war a veniel sin? A mortal one? How was the accounting of these wars handled? I mean, were they put on the books, or kept off the ledger sheets, since a certain Veep said that a 1980s US Prexy "proved" that "deficits don't matter". Do they matter now? If so, why? How much did the Iraq and Afghanistan wars cost us, so far? (you may round your answer to the nearest trillion dollars). Since you don't consider Bush a total screw-up (your words), do you consider him a partial screw-up? Too bad W didn't keep this nation safe on 9.11, right? You write, "My life was stable and safe under President Bush and it has been hell under Obama. " Whose fault is that, and why? (please give details). Did your life become hell on January 20th, 2009, when Obama took office? Or before? Or after? In fact, I do remember correctly, and the Congress was not completely behind W in his Iraq war plans. In fact, my congresswoman was not. Yes, I can imagine what would have happened if Obama was President on 9.11. Benghazi? I'm not sure how Obama should have handled Benghazi. The four Americans killed there is indeed tragic, and yes, security should have been stronger. But considering all the other screw-ups we've had since 2000, this is pretty small stuff. I can understand why you and perhaps others here might want to make it a federal case, however. Who is Scott Brown? What happened to Scott Brown? Who is Elizabeth Warren? Ever hear of the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau? What happened when Warren was nominated to that post? Why?

Really, what did Bush stand for?

James eagerly and respectfully looks forward to your detailed answers.

Sweet dreams!

James ☺

--hide--


laughing Same ol' James. I agree with Edward. Not much can be said to someone with their head buried so deep in the sand shhh Aren't you the guy that gets his info from Bill Maher...how could I possibly top that? I could match you tit for tat but to what end? I've talked with my pastor, I know where my loyalty lies theheart America is going to learn the hard way, so hang on.

Nov 30th 2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said: No, not just Bush. There's Clinton, too. As I understand it, this ugly business of "rendi...
(Quote) James-17080 said:

No, not just Bush. There's Clinton, too. As I understand it, this ugly business of "rendition" started under him. It's interesting and perhaps revealing that those here on CM who like to wave the flag and the Constitution in the faces of others at every opportunity are strangely silent when it comes to this topic. Of course, when I bring it up, I'm denounced as a "liberal". Funny, but I do not recall anything about rendition in the Constitution. There is the requirement of due process, a fact that seems to have been conveniently forgotten by some here.

--hide--


What are you talking about? Renditions are one of the best tactics we have to combat international jihad. The consitution doe snot apply to foreign wars and counter terrorism is warfare NOT law enforcement. You're mixing apples and oranges again. Shoddy thinking - like very loose banjo strings. Tighten it up a bit.


And you may want to get acquainted with logic and reality if you wish to continue discussing such issues. lil mikie

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