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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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11/21/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Joe, you need to be careful. Anyone who voted for Obummer is guilty of utter lack of inte...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Joe, you need to be careful. Anyone who voted for Obummer is guilty of utter lack of intelligent appraisal. But their foolish act may not have been sinful. Remember, for any act to be sinful, mortal or venial, three conditions must be met.

The act must be intrinsically wrong, a person must know it is intrinsically wrong and they must choose to do it anyway.

Unfortunately, relatively few Bishops spoke out as clearly and forcibly as say Chaput of Philadelphia. The official statement from the USCCB was such that one must have more than a 9th grade reading ability (the level of reading ability that writing experts say writing should be at for general understanding) and must have spent some time reflecting on it to understand what was said. A quick read would leave one with the impression that all we have to do is pay some attention and vote our conscience.

Most people never saw or heard the Bishops'position. What they did hear or see was what their priest in the pulpit had to say or what was published in the parish bulletin. Here, even more problems occurred. Too many pastors never said a word or published anything. Too many, did not agree with the Bishops. Too many used the same high level language used by the Bishops.

In short, in all charity it must be said that most Catholics did not believe that a vote for Obummer was intrinsically evil and concentrated on other things.

And it must be remembered that for so long the Church in America has had a position that the only thing that mattered was "social justice" issues with an almost complete silence about even addressing the issues of intrinsic evil.

And finally, there is the sad fact that most Catholics are Catholic in name only. That has come about for many reasons, all of which are frequently discussed in these forums.

--hide--


Paul, each person that votes is responsible for their own vote and the consequences of that vote. I would not pass off my responsibility to the bishops or anyone else. It doesn't take a whole lot of research to know exactly where Obama is on the positions that are important to our faith.

I, and a lot of other voters, did not need to hear a bishop tell us what the churches position is on life.

11/21/2012 new

I am not sure I believe the exit polls, but Catholics who publicly endorsed Obama should be rebuked.

(Quote) John-220051 said: I'd say the fact over 50 percent of self-identified Catholics voted for Obama shows just how poor cat...
(Quote) John-220051 said: I'd say the fact over 50 percent of self-identified Catholics voted for Obama shows just how poor catechesis and Catholics spiritual formation has been since Vatican II.
--hide--

11/22/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Joe, you need to be careful. Anyone who voted for Obummer is guilty of utter lack of inte...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Joe, you need to be careful. Anyone who voted for Obummer is guilty of utter lack of intelligent appraisal. But their foolish act may not have been sinful. Remember, for any act to be sinful, mortal or venial, three conditions must be met.

The act must be intrinsically wrong, a person must know it is intrinsically wrong and they must choose to do it anyway.

Unfortunately, relatively few Bishops spoke out as clearly and forcibly as say Chaput of Philadelphia. The official statement from the USCCB was such that one must have more than a 9th grade reading ability (the level of reading ability that writing experts say writing should be at for general understanding) and must have spent some time reflecting on it to understand what was said. A quick read would leave one with the impression that all we have to do is pay some attention and vote our conscience.

Most people never saw or heard the Bishops'position. What they did hear or see was what their priest in the pulpit had to say or what was published in the parish bulletin. Here, even more problems occurred. Too many pastors never said a word or published anything. Too many, did not agree with the Bishops. Too many used the same high level language used by the Bishops.

In short, in all charity it must be said that most Catholics did not believe that a vote for Obummer was intrinsically evil and concentrated on other things.

And it must be remembered that for so long the Church in America has had a position that the only thing that mattered was "social justice" issues with an almost complete silence about even addressing the issues of intrinsic evil.

And finally, there is the sad fact that most Catholics are Catholic in name only. That has come about for many reasons, all of which are frequently discussed in these forums.

--hide--
Well said Paul. The three conditions you mentioned are correct, and as such, it should have been the RESPONSIBILITY of clergy to educate their parishoners, but for the most part Catholics were not informed and actually may not have committed a sin in voting for Obama for that reason. In my church - not a word about politics, nor a word from our bishop who I contacted with the same message that I sent to the USCCB. If the USCCB had sent a forceful message concerning the sinful policies of the Obama administration to every diocese, then that message would have reached millions of church-going Catholics on the same day!! I vented my frustration about this in my heavily CAPITALIZED post the day after the election. I am utterly disgusted with our Church leadership. The future will now be millions more abortions, the eventual force-out of Catholic-based healthcare facilities due to the HHS mandate as Obama completes his plan for socialized medicine, and a national policy of same-sex marriage, most probably through the Supreme Court as in Roe vs. Wade. I certainly cannot speak for all Americans, but for Catholics, I believe we got what we deserved because of the PATHETIC leadership of our Church.

11/22/2012 new

(Quote) Joseph-750000 said: Well said Paul. The three conditions you mentioned are correct, and as such, it should have been...
(Quote) Joseph-750000 said:

Well said Paul. The three conditions you mentioned are correct, and as such, it should have been the RESPONSIBILITY of clergy to educate their parishoners, but for the most part Catholics were not informed and actually may not have committed a sin in voting for Obama for that reason. In my church - not a word about politics, nor a word from our bishop who I contacted with the same message that I sent to the USCCB. If the USCCB had sent a forceful message concerning the sinful policies of the Obama administration to every diocese, then that message would have reached millions of church-going Catholics on the same day!! I vented my frustration about this in my heavily CAPITALIZED post the day after the election. I am utterly disgusted with our Church leadership. The future will now be millions more abortions, the eventual force-out of Catholic-based healthcare facilities due to the HHS mandate as Obama completes his plan for socialized medicine, and a national policy of same-sex marriage, most probably through the Supreme Court as in Roe vs. Wade. I certainly cannot speak for all Americans, but for Catholics, I believe we got what we deserved because of the PATHETIC leadership of our Church.

--hide--

And the sad part of this tale is that on the whole, the leadership of the Church in America today is a lot better than it has been over the last 40 years. Obviously there is still a long way to go.

They should probably fire virtually all of the lay staff at the USCCB and learn and apply the KISS principle in everything they say and do.

I recently read a book that contained a whole series of St. John Chrysostom's sermons on the Gospel of John. How profound, yet so simple and effective. And John's Gospel is not the easiest read in itself.

11/22/2012 new

(Quote) Joseph-750000 said: Well said Paul. The three conditions you mentioned are correct, and as such, it should have been...
(Quote) Joseph-750000 said:

Well said Paul. The three conditions you mentioned are correct, and as such, it should have been the RESPONSIBILITY of clergy to educate their parishoners, but for the most part Catholics were not informed and actually may not have committed a sin in voting for Obama for that reason. In my church - not a word about politics, nor a word from our bishop who I contacted with the same message that I sent to the USCCB. If the USCCB had sent a forceful message concerning the sinful policies of the Obama administration to every diocese, then that message would have reached millions of church-going Catholics on the same day!! I vented my frustration about this in my heavily CAPITALIZED post the day after the election. I am utterly disgusted with our Church leadership. The future will now be millions more abortions, the eventual force-out of Catholic-based healthcare facilities due to the HHS mandate as Obama completes his plan for socialized medicine, and a national policy of same-sex marriage, most probably through the Supreme Court as in Roe vs. Wade. I certainly cannot speak for all Americans, but for Catholics, I believe we got what we deserved because of the PATHETIC leadership of our Church.

--hide--


I absolutely agree with you, Joseph. Until the hierarchy reclaims vows to lead the Church and reestablish their responsibility, we are left without shepherds. It is a sad state of affairs and reduces the value of being Catholic in our society to just a name.


Can. 528 states in part: "The parish priest has the obligation of ensuring that he word of God is proclaimed in its entirety to those living in the parish. He is therefore to see to it that the lay members of Christ's faithful are instructed int he truths of faith, especially by means of the homily on Sundays and holy days of obligation and by catechetical formation. He is to foster works which promote the spirit of the Gospel, including its relevance to social justice."


Unfortunately, very few parish priest take their obligation to sheppard the faithful very seriously. In my area, I know of only one who stands up for the faith. Our country and our Church appear to be in the same boat...weak or no leadership. That leaves us to depend on the writings of the Church, the Holy Spirit, and those who choose to follow the true teachings of the Church to guide us through this mess.


- Elizabeth

11/22/2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'm asking a theological question.


I read a lot of material prior to the election so I don't have the exact quote or author of the quote. But basically what the priest said was that when one votes for a pro-choice (pro-abortion) candidate when another (more pro-life) alternative is available, then that person (voter) cooperates with the evil done by that pro-choice candidate if they are voted into (or voted to remain) in public office. The reason behind this is because the Church recognizes that in the case of two evils it is better to chose the one whose platform is "lesser of the 2 evils." However, the issue of life is so fundamental that it is preferable to chose a candidate that is more prolife even if his other policies are intrinsically evil than it is to chose the other candidate whose platforms are more acceptable, but they are pro-choice.


Now for the question: "Are those who voted for Obama guilty of a mortal sin (IE cooperating with the evil he promulgates via abortion)?" And if they are, shouldn't they go to confession prior to receiving the Eucharist or be guilty of another mortal sin?

I ask these questions, because I am of the opinion that when we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist unworthily we bring condemnation upon ourselves. (1 Cor 11:29). I also believe that the fruits of that is a loss of faith. I am seeing a lot of people who have lost their faith.

Just wondering.



--hide--


Though I am not holding out Wikipedia as the premier source for issues of the Church, it was the easiest to find. Wikipedia has the following listed as those excommunicated in association with abortion:

The Archbishop of Olinda and Recife in Brazil, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, announced the automatic excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion after being raped and impregnated by her stepfather.[28][29] Margaret McBride, a nun, for allowing an abortion.[30] McBride later reconciled with the church and is no longer living in a state of excommunication. All the Catholics and legislators who promoted the abortion law in Uruguay.[31][32][33]


If the Church is consistent, then we should see excommunications of those who promoted the abortion law in the U.S. and politicians who promote abortion. I am not a betting person, but if I were I would bet the greater portion of our Church leaders do not have the backbone to stand by Church law on the issue of excommunication anymore than they did on instructing the faithful on where the Church stood during this election.

- Elizabeth

11/22/2012 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said: Though I am not holding out Wikipedia as the premier source for issues of the Ch...
(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said:


Though I am not holding out Wikipedia as the premier source for issues of the Church, it was the easiest to find. Wikipedia has the following listed as those excommunicated in association with abortion:

The Archbishop of Olinda and Recife in Brazil, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, announced the automatic excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion after being raped and impregnated by her stepfather.[28][29] Margaret McBride, a nun, for allowing an abortion.[30] McBride later reconciled with the church and is no longer living in a state of excommunication. All the Catholics and legislators who promoted the abortion law in Uruguay.[31][32][33]


If the Church is consistent, then we should see excommunications of those who promoted the abortion law in the U.S. and politicians who promote abortion. I am not a betting person, but if I were I would bet the greater portion of our Church leaders do not have the backbone to stand by Church law on the issue of excommunication anymore than they did on instructing the faithful on where the Church stood during this election.

- Elizabeth


I cannot speak for other locations, but Bishop Leverde did a very good job of informing the Faithful of these issues and so did the priests under his guidance. Both of the Catholic Church's that I attended had information in bulletins and the priests preached from the pulpit about the stand of the Catholic Church on all the issues. There were also novenas and special Mass's for life and liberty. I worry that there were people who were fully informed and still voted for the democratic party, in that they are held to a higher standard (culpability) due to their level of knowledge on the issue.

--hide--

11/22/2012 new
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'm asking a t...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'm asking a theological question.






I read a lot of material prior to the election so I don't have the exact quote or author of the quote. But basically what the priest said was that when one votes for a pro-choice (pro-abortion) candidate when another (more pro-life) alternative is available, then that person (voter) cooperates with the evil done by that pro-choice candidate if they are voted into (or voted to remain) in public office. The reason behind this is because the Church recognizes that in the case of two evils it is better to chose the one whose platform is "lesser of the 2 evils." However, the issue of life is so fundamental that it is preferable to chose a candidate that is more prolife even if his other policies are intrinsically evil than it is to chose the other candidate whose platforms are more acceptable, but they are pro-choice.






Now for the question: "Are those who voted for Obama guilty of a mortal sin (IE cooperating with the evil he promulgates via abortion)?" And if they are, shouldn't they go to confession prior to receiving the Eucharist or be guilty of another mortal sin?





I ask these questions, because I am of the opinion that when we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist unworthily we bring condemnation upon ourselves. (1 Cor 11:29). I also believe that the fruits of that is a loss of faith. I am seeing a lot of people who have lost their faith.



Just wondering.





--hide--


I think you may be right. If I support and aid a purveyor of murder, am I not also quilty?
11/22/2012 new

(Quote) Karis-410918 said: NO THEY ARE NOT. YOU CANNOT JUDGE WHAT IS IN VOTER HEARTS, INCLUDING YOURS, PERHAPS!
(Quote) Karis-410918 said:



NO THEY ARE NOT. YOU CANNOT JUDGE WHAT IS IN VOTER HEARTS, INCLUDING YOURS, PERHAPS!







--hide--


We cannot judge a person and only God knows the individual heart, however, we can and must judge/discern actions, it is in this "discernment" that we exercise one of the corporal works of mercy and that is to admonish the sinner. We do not condemn another, no more than a parent condemns a child when they do wrong, the parent corrects the child and holds the child accountable for their own good and for the greater good of society. That is why we call the Church "Holy Mother Church" because as our parent she gives clear guidance on what is sin and what is not. Too many people have improperly formed conscientious' (Timothy McVeigh thought what he was doing was right in blowing up the Federal building in Oklahoma). If we hold ourselves to our own standards and not those of Christ we are guilty of ignorance at best. It IS the role of the Church to listen to the voice of her spouse, the Holy Spirit so that she can lead us to "all truth." The ambiguous attitude of "oh, God understands" said in relation to whatever a person is doing contrary to moral and natural law will result in the loss of their eternal soul if they do not return to Christ. Even scripture tells us that if we do not correct the sinner that we will be held accountable for their sin (Ezekiel 3:18). Take a look at the world now, the spirit of relativism that has decayed morals and "called evil good and good evil." It is auspicious that Pope Benedict has decreed this the Year of Faith, when it is sorely lacking.


Do I say all of this from position of superiority? Hell no, I've been guilty of many of the sins that are occuring and have been guilty of the same "oh God understands" mentality. It was the light of the Truth shown to me and spoken to me by fellow Catholics and Christians in a loving manner that illuminated my life. My poor parish priest had to listen to a 3 hour confession when I returned to the arms of my "Mother." It was the most liberating 3 hours of my life. I knew that I was fortunate to be "judged" by my peers and held accountable than to be judged at my death.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Joe, you need to be careful. Anyone who voted for Obummer is guilty of utter lack of inte...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Joe, you need to be careful. Anyone who voted for Obummer is guilty of utter lack of intelligent appraisal. But their foolish act may not have been sinful. Remember, for any act to be sinful, mortal or venial, three conditions must be met.

The act must be intrinsically wrong, a person must know it is intrinsically wrong and they must choose to do it anyway.

Unfortunately, relatively few Bishops spoke out as clearly and forcibly as say Chaput of Philadelphia. The official statement from the USCCB was such that one must have more than a 9th grade reading ability (the level of reading ability that writing experts say writing should be at for general understanding) and must have spent some time reflecting on it to understand what was said. A quick read would leave one with the impression that all we have to do is pay some attention and vote our conscience.

Most people never saw or heard the Bishops'position. What they did hear or see was what their priest in the pulpit had to say or what was published in the parish bulletin. Here, even more problems occurred. Too many pastors never said a word or published anything. Too many, did not agree with the Bishops. Too many used the same high level language used by the Bishops.

In short, in all charity it must be said that most Catholics did not believe that a vote for Obummer was intrinsically evil and concentrated on other things.

And it must be remembered that for so long the Church in America has had a position that the only thing that mattered was "social justice" issues with an almost complete silence about even addressing the issues of intrinsic evil.

And finally, there is the sad fact that most Catholics are Catholic in name only. That has come about for many reasons, all of which are frequently discussed in these forums.

--hide--
I don't know...under the circumstances, at least in my diocese, I think the Church did everything they could except endorse Romney for tax/political reasons....and how can anyone not know how proabortion Obama is? I mean at least Catholics on here knew because we told them...and some of them not only voted for him but defended him. For instance, just the fact that Obama voted 3 x to pass the bill to kill a baby born alive...two bodies seperated so definitely murder but he voted for it....they knew this and justified their vote anyway with pure evil like it is the women's choice (and doctor) and they will be accountable....since when do we as a society not punish murder and instead even promote it?

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