Faith Focused Dating. Create your Free Profile and meet your Match! Sign Up for Free
A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said: (Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I think one has to differentiate ...
(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said:

Quote:
Chelsea-743484 said:



I think one has to differentiate between material and formal support or aid given a person.

Here is an example demonstrating the difference:

A taxi driver transports a woman to an abortion clinic with neither hope nor intention that she procure an abortion. He is merely delivering her as a client who contracted business with him to transport her to a specific place.

This is material aid. The action of transporting fares is neutral.

A taxi driver transports a woman to an abortion clinic because he wants her to procure an abortion for which she is intending to go there. His is taking her not only to fulfill a contract, but also to fulfill the union of wills regarding the procurement of the abortion.

This is formal aid. Aligning one's self in union with commission of an intrinsic evil is evil action.

Sin is not committed by material aid in itself, but sin is committed by formal aid.

If an adult voted for Pres. Obama in spite of his party platform, for the purpose of moral benefit Mr. Obama offered in campaign promises, then he has offered only material support by his vote.

If an adult voted for Pres. Obama, in union with his party platform, for the purpose of immoral benefits Mr. Obama offered in campaign promises, then he has offered formal support by his vote.

That said, I don't know how a Pres. Obama supporter can stand before Christ at his particular judgment and offer a good enough reason to give material aid to a man who has no scruple about ending the lives of so many children before they are even born.



I totally disagree with your analysis, Chelsea. The adults who voted for Pres. Obama for the purpose of moral benefit or immoral benefits all knew more babies would die if Obama were reelected. No one can hide behind rationalization on this issue.


I do agree with your last statement.


- Elizabeth

--hide--


Hi Elizabeth et alia,

Elizabeth, I certainly disagree with what you wrote. There's no way of knowing what would have happened if Romney got elected, aside from a radical free-market approach to the American Economy, that only would have been tempered by the fact that the Senate is controlled by the Democrats. And in fact, as I pointed out somewhere else here, Romney said that “There’s no legislation with regards to abortion that I’m familiar with that would become part of my agenda.” I'm also not the only one to bring this up. I do believe that Chelsea has mentioned this also.

Why wizards here have gone ga-ga over Romney is one of the mysteries of the universe.

James ☺

Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: NO THEY ARE NOT - unless they voted with a specific intnetion such as validating his pro-abortion...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

NO THEY ARE NOT - unless they voted with a specific intnetion such as validating his pro-abortion policies.

--hide--


Hi David et alia,

I certainly agree.

I find myself wondering why this was posted here in the first place.

Jim ☺

Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said: (Quote) David-364112 said: NO THEY ARE NOT - unless they voted with a speci...
(Quote) James-17080 said:

Quote:
David-364112 said:

NO THEY ARE NOT - unless they voted with a specific intnetion such as validating his pro-abortion policies.




Hi David et alia,

I certainly agree.

I find myself wondering why this was posted here in the first place.

Jim ☺

--hide--


*** Erratum *** Please strike my last line! Any confusion is regretted.

Nov 25th 2012 new
(Quote) Joe-787295 said: I'll make you a trade - Romney's tax returns for Obama's student reco...
(Quote) Joe-787295 said:



I'll make you a trade -



Romney's tax returns for Obama's student records. Kind of makes you wonder what is in those student records, doesn't it?

--hide--


clap clap clap Throw in those college and passport records, too! What happened to the transparency we were promised by His Highness?
Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said:Hi Elizabeth et alia,Elizabeth, I certainly disagree with what you wrote. There's no w...
(Quote) James-17080 said:

Hi Elizabeth et alia,

Elizabeth, I certainly disagree with what you wrote. There's no way of knowing what would have happened if Romney got elected, aside from a radical free-market approach to the American Economy, that only would have been tempered by the fact that the Senate is controlled by the Democrats. And in fact, as I pointed out somewhere else here, Romney said that “There’s no legislation with regards to abortion that I’m familiar with that would become part of my agenda.” I'm also not the only one to bring this up. I do believe that Chelsea has mentioned this also.

Why wizards here have gone ga-ga over Romney is one of the mysteries of the universe.

James ☺

--hide--

Although there may be those who went gaga over Romney, the majority here saw him as less destructive of moral values than Obummer. A lot pointed out, they voted for Romney holding their noses.

Oh yes, they also voted for Romney because the Bishops of the US very clumsily told us that any Catholic with a properly formed conscience could not vote for Obummer without endangering their immortal souls.

The fact that 54% of people who identify themselves as Catholic, somehow saw no problem voting for him, tells us what a terrible state the Church in America is in.

Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: (Quote) James-17080 said:Hi Elizabeth et alia,Elizabeth, I certain...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Quote:
James-17080 said:

Hi Elizabeth et alia,

Elizabeth, I certainly disagree with what you wrote. There's no way of knowing what would have happened if Romney got elected, aside from a radical free-market approach to the American Economy, that only would have been tempered by the fact that the Senate is controlled by the Democrats. And in fact, as I pointed out somewhere else here, Romney said that “There’s no legislation with regards to abortion that I’m familiar with that would become part of my agenda.” I'm also not the only one to bring this up. I do believe that Chelsea has mentioned this also.

Why wizards here have gone ga-ga over Romney is one of the mysteries of the universe.

James ☺


Although there may be those who went gaga over Romney, the majority here saw him as less destructive of moral values than Obummer. A lot pointed out, they voted for Romney holding their noses.

Oh yes, they also voted for Romney because the Bishops of the US very clumsily told us that any Catholic with a properly formed conscience could not vote for Obummer without endangering their immortal souls.

The fact that 54% of people who identify themselves as Catholic, somehow saw no problem voting for him, tells us what a terrible state the Church in America is in.

--hide--



Hi Paul et alia,

Maybe, Paul, maybe. Or, maybe the vote was an indirect indictment of whatever bishop actually told his flock that voting for Obama would endanger their souls. Maybe.

James ☺

Nov 25th 2012 new

God gave us free will and a brain that is capable of deep, personal and social thought. I do not believe that it is a mortal sin as of now for me to support a prochoice individual b/c right now abortion is legal. I also believe that no one is prochoice, that all wish there was another option. But I do not see Catholic churches across the nation providing care and support for the young mother and her baby. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem! When we are willing to love and shelter the Mother and baby until the Mother is able to care for the baby or an adoptive family is found then we would see a large decrease in abortions. Women who have abortions suffer for the rest of their lives. No one wins this one, so to cast sin onto Obama supporters b/c of the democratic platform sounds like something out of the middle ages. jan

Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said: Hi David et alia,I certainly agree. I find myself wondering why this was p...
(Quote) James-17080 said:



Hi David et alia,

I certainly agree.

I find myself wondering why this was posted here in the first place.

Jim ☺

--hide--


because many people make a seriously stupid equation of politics and religion. there may be plenty of overlap between one political party and the truths of our faith, but NEVER is any one political party or movement entirely representative of the faith. to equate ephemeral politics with the immortal and immutable God is blasphemy. it is also IDIOTIC. God is no more a republican than he was a supporter of generalissimo franco and his spanish fascists who were seen by many as saviors of the church. look what they turned into!

Nov 25th 2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said:Hi Paul et alia,Maybe, Paul, maybe. Or, maybe the vote was an indirect indictment of whate...
(Quote) James-17080 said:

Hi Paul et alia,

Maybe, Paul, maybe. Or, maybe the vote was an indirect indictment of whatever bishop actually told his flock that voting for Obama would endanger their souls. Maybe.

James ☺

--hide--

Since every Bishop signed on, according to you they were all indicted. There are some things the Bishops talk about that can be questioned. When to a man they say the same thing in their official statement (a rare instance of unanimity) we sholuld at least listen and try to analyse why they said it. In individual statements some were even stronger and some more confusing than others.

And to properly analyse what they said, a person would have to first set aside their preformed prejudices and judgements. One would also have to understand that unless they are better educated then Bishops in moral theology they really have very little grouind to challenge what they say.

Besides, if you had not noticed, the resolution of moral questions does not rest on a popular vote.

Obviously you believe in Obummer. In my opinion he is the worst excuse for a president in my lifetime and the least qualified. And that is saying oine heck of a lot with the likes of Carter (whom I used to beleive no one could be worse than) and NIixon and LBJ who at least was effective in getting his agenda passed.

Nov 25th 2012 new

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan

Posts 61 - 70 of 186