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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Nov 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: I think an argument to be made
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:

Quote:
James-17080 said:


I think an argument to be made against Occidental priests getting married is that if they do, the whole issue against any form of artificial birth control might very well suffer a serious blow. John, if you read this, maybe you can tell us how this is handled in the Oriental Churches.

James ☺


What blow would that be, James? The argument against artificial birth control is the damage it does to the marriage by dividing the unitive and procreative purpose of marriage, and dimishing the relationship from the support each bring to each other and the flourishing it provides to what can the woman, who has to take the pill, give to "satisfy" the man.

I would think that a married man who is faithful and is ordained on that understanding (they do check the guy's family life, you know) makes a good witness to both the blessings of married life as well as the fruits of overcoming the struggles of it.

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Hi Steven et alia,

I'm sorry, I probably expressed myself wrong. I'm not sure going at it one more time will make things better, but I'll give it a try. If parishioners somehow detect that the wives of priests are using artificial birth control, then I suspect that a lot of them will say, "If he doesn't practice what he preaches, then why should we follow along?"

On a totally unrelated note, Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone else here :-)

gobble gobble gobble!

James ☺

Nov 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Yes. But celibacy in the Western Church was not a universal discipline. Married priests were common in pl...
(Quote) John-220051 said: Yes. But celibacy in the Western Church was not a universal discipline. Married priests were common in places like Britain. The discipline depended on the local ecclesiastical province until St. Gregory VII made it universal in the Western Church.

The top-down curial papacy that developed in the later Middle Ages didn't exist in the so-called Dark Ages.
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Hi John et alia,

Judging from the Wikipedia article on clerical celibacy, it was not until the 11th or12th Century that celibacy became absolutely mandatory (with rare exceptions) in the Latin Church. To this day, celibacy remains optional in the Oriental Churches.

James ☺

Nov 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) Eric-114571 said: That was my impression -- periodically the code of canon law needs to be tidied up, update...
(Quote) Eric-114571 said:



That was my impression -- periodically the code of canon law needs to be tidied up, updated, made coherent, etc. It was re-written. Replacing the prior code was the intent.

Having married priests can't be seen (today) to cause THAT much of a problem because Anglican priests are allowed to convert and be ordained even if married. I don't want to get into a long debate with anyone that it's on an exception basis, it's not to be the norm, etc., etc. I know that. But my point is that I've met novus ordo rite parishioners from a couple of parishes that have a married priest and they think nothing of it. To them it's no big deal.

Rome wants celibacy for the Latin Rite then that works for me. But getting bent out of shape over eastern rite parishes having married priests given the long history of that in eastern lands... and given the other much worse problems these days... I just think we've all got bigger fish to fry than that.

My

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Celibacy is the norm for the Latin Rite, but there are far more married men ordained in the Latin Rite, allowed through conversion, in the US than Eastern Catholic Churches which allow this by tradition.

Nov 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-302787 said: (Quote) Gerald-283546 said: It seems to me that we in the Roman Church have seen w...
(Quote) Paul-302787 said:
Quote:
Gerald-283546 said:

It seems to me that we in the Roman Church have seen what a Gay clergy gives us. Just look at Europe, Ireland and America! Now that it is out in the open and we have had the pederasty scandal, the dumbing down of the Faithful, the disintegration of chatechism, the shunning of reverence, and relativism and double speak from Rome to parish level, it is time for a change.

Although I am basically a Conservative, who loves Tradition, Latin and Greek, order and challenge, yet....

I am now, at long last, after resisting it for decades, ready to try a married Priesthood. Just as we may have to learn from our Eastern Catholic Brethren how to hold a reverent liturgy, so possibly may we need to learn the wisdom of embracing a married clergy. The past decade has opened my mind. I am now open to it. Let the priests be married, and let us see which model works better. I contend Jesus would have been married if he weren't planning on being crucified.

But, now that I think of it, most of my married male friends consider that they have been crucified! (There are of course a few exceptions.)

Let's take this to its logical conclusion. A married man suffers as one crucified, and so can better identify as Christ. By giving himself to a woman, and later to his family, he serves an apprenticeship for giving to his parish or diocese later as a priest.




Sorry, Gerald, I am all for resurrecting the married presbyterate in the Byzantine Catholic churches in the United States, but to say that a married man suffers as one is crucified more than a single person is untenable. And I am not quite sure what to make of that gay clergy argument.
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Hi Paul et alia,

Uhhh.....hmmm.... yes, my point exactly laughing I was just giving Gerald the benefit of the doubt upstairs.

James ☺

Nov 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said: Celibacy is the norm for the Latin Rite, but there are far more married men ordained in...
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:

Celibacy is the norm for the Latin Rite, but there are far more married men ordained in the Latin Rite, allowed through conversion, in the US than Eastern Catholic Churches which allow this by tradition.

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I wonder if the real reason is that if the norm for eastern parishes in the US became married priests then the latin rite would have a vocations problem while eastern rite parishes would have a surge. The stated reason of lay people being confused and troubled over it just does not happen for the most part.

Nov 23rd 2012 new

(Quote) Eric-114571 said: I wonder if the real reason is that if the norm for eastern parishes in the US became marr...
(Quote) Eric-114571 said:



I wonder if the real reason is that if the norm for eastern parishes in the US became married priests then the latin rite would have a vocations problem while eastern rite parishes would have a surge. The stated reason of lay people being confused and troubled over it just does not happen for the most part.

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Not necessarily. The Latin Rite is having an increase in the number of vocations, and the religious orders that show fidelity to the Faith are increasing in vocation in both rites of the Church.

Whether you are single or married, you do not come to the Priesthood unless you feel a calling, and are not choosen to be ordained unless those forming the seminarian feel the vocation is real. Given that the "vocation shortage" was due in large part to those teachers who wanted to form only priests loyal to a distorted Modernist version of the faith (what Pope St. Pius X called "the synthesis of all heresies"), it is clear that the state of life of those who seek to test their calling will not have much impact on the number selected.

Nov 23rd 2012 new
The Modernists are like the ancient Christians who sacrificed to the Roman idols rather than stay true to the faith. Modernism = paganism.
Nov 24th 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The Modernists are like the ancient Christians who sacrificed to the Roman idols rather than stay true to...
(Quote) John-220051 said: The Modernists are like the ancient Christians who sacrificed to the Roman idols rather than stay true to the faith. Modernism = paganism.
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Speaking of which, here is St. Cyprian of Carthage on those who did sacrifice to idols during the persecution of the Emperor Decian in 251AD.

"On the Lapsed"

archive.org

Nov 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said:it is clear that the state of life of those who seek to test their calling will not have much impact on ...
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:it is clear that the state of life of those who seek to test their calling will not have much impact on the number selected.

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Obviously I can't know for sure but let me test your opinion on that by bouncing it up against this fact here in my diocese:

2 years ago the number of active deacons equaled the number of active priests. One of the major differences between the 2 groups of men applying is that the deacons are almost all married. Now 2 years later the number of deacons likely is greater than priests. The party line is that the priest shortage is not due to celibacy but this seems to speak to the contrary. Likewise a major difference between Eastern Orthodox and Latin Rite priests is celibacy. One of the major EO jurisdictions has a website that has a button that allows one to ask questions. I submitted the question and asked if they have a priest shortage. Answer: quite the contrary. Seminary enrollment is at record highs.

More deacons than priest vocations.
The # of EO priest vocations vs. Latin Rite.

It's not celibacy... It's not celibacy... It's not celibacy. Rome keeps saying this yet I don't see any facts that seem to back that up.

I want to be clear that I am loyal to the Pope and his authority. Celibacy is purely a disciplinary decision -- I fully support his right to continue to practice of celibacy but just think it's not working well.

Nov 24th 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The Modernists are like the ancient Christians who sacrificed to the Roman idols rather than stay true to...
(Quote) John-220051 said: The Modernists are like the ancient Christians who sacrificed to the Roman idols rather than stay true to the faith. Modernism = paganism.
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