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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Nov 19th 2012 new
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: It doesn't matter that "most" sexual abuse is not perpetrated by priests, what matters ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



It doesn't matter that "most" sexual abuse is not perpetrated by priests, what matters is that parents do facilitate access of their children to priests, deacons, consecrated religious, and lay workers who are unorthodox and untrustworthy (and therefore unpredictable). It seems if these parents loved their children, they would not do that.

I already have had someone close to me experience this sort of abuse...several someones, in fact, and I do not see how to excuse parents from sharing in some of the guilt.

--hide--
Being a survivor myself, I know a bit about the subject. It is always easy to point the finger at people especially when you have not lived in. I do NOT blame my parents in any way. You seem to be authority on a lot of things. Maybe after you have raised some children successfully you will understand and have a little more compassion for other people. The bible speaks a lot about the tongue too.
Nov 19th 2012 new

(Quote) Marirose-887295 said: Being a survivor myself, I know a bit about the subject. It is always easy to point the finger at peo...
(Quote) Marirose-887295 said: Being a survivor myself, I know a bit about the subject. It is always easy to point the finger at people especially when you have not lived in. I do NOT blame my parents in any way. You seem to be authority on a lot of things. Maybe after you have raised some children successfully you will understand and have a little more compassion for other people. The bible speaks a lot about the tongue too.
--hide--


OK.

Nov 19th 2012 new

As a survivor of abuse in a church, albeit a different denomination I can say that when it comes to situations like this it is not beneficial to point the finger at others. When we (as a Church community) try to find someone else to blame it ends up, inevitably, being something that disconnects us from the victims of the abuse. Unless we are saying, "what could we have done differently?" there is no reason to place blame. I promise you that the parents of the victims are already blaming themselves.

Also, remember that the abusers in these cases are not just randomly picking victims. It is a well thought out process with a whole life dedicated to not only grooming victims, but to grooming trust in the community around the victim. One of the best articles I read on this was a post for the electronic content of the New Yorker www.newyorker.com . That article really explains why the abusers are often able to avoid setting off the alarms with parents and others who are in positions to protect the victims.

Finally, to your original point about why they would leave the faith. Is it so hard to see how a victim would not be connected to the true nature of God's love for them when the person/ people who are set before them to teach them about God instead abuse them? God's love is revield to us, as children, through the imperfect love of parents and others who care for and protect us. Then the magnitude of perfect love can be felt, if not truly understood. In this sutiation where those who are supposed to be called to show God's unconditional love (to the best of human ability) fail so horribly, and instead victimize, abuse and cause permanent harm. Is it shocking that the understanding of God's love is not realized? They did not turn from God's love. They never saw it. Do not blame the victims for failing to see what was never revieled to them. Everyone's path to recovery from abuse is different.

Nov 20th 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I have heard a lot of accounts now of the exodus from the Catholic Church which was supposedly ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

I have heard a lot of accounts now of the exodus from the Catholic Church which was supposedly caused by the "paedophilia scandal."

What I want to know, but no one seems to be asking about, is why a person would abandon Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is really, truly and substantially present to us in the Eucharist, over the sin of some other man? I mean, how does that make sense? Abandon God because a priest sinned? When did God promise impeccable pastors?...and Do these same individuals who abandon Christ stop associations with the parents of families who had the abuse reported to them by their children but ignored it for whatever reason?

One of the big things in the so-called "paedophilia scandal" that boggles my mind is why no one is upset with these parents who knew reports of the abuse or suspected immodest/unchaste behavior was going on...and still allowed their children private contact with these priests. How does that make any sense?

Sure, the uncovering of the sin to the light of day is disturbing and troubling, but how many parents have actually changed how they live their lives by the knowledge of this sin? How many parents have become vigilant and stopped allowing unsupervised access (I'm not referring to the Sacrament of Penance, but rather unchaperoned gatherings or field trips) of the priests to their children?

To my knowledge, at my parish, other than the VIRTUS training given to diocesan workers on how to reckognize signs of impropriety between adults and children and prevent escalation, the parents are pretty much complacent in allowing their children to be taken out of sight by priests and lay diocesan staff. How does that make any sense? I mean, there is this huge problem that practically everyone is now aware of, so what has changed on the part of parents?

I am asking this seriously, because I want to know seriously.

I'm not observing any change in my corner of the world on the part of parents, but maybe others are. I'd love to hear what anyone else has observed, or found in regard to my questions.

Thanks...

--hide--

As blunt as this sounds, it is just a lame excuse for turning ones back on God.

Nov 20th 2012 new

Elizabeth...As the survivor of such abuse (outside of the church), I can tell you that there is nothing 'lame' in any actions following these events. I absolutely turned my back on God for several years. Thankfully, God does not turn His back on us.

I have said it before in the fora, but I think all of us need to be aware of our potential audience when responding. Having opinions and not being afraid to voice them is a good thing. Being deliberately derogatory of any person is unnecessary.

Chelsea...good topic and good questions. Being a child of the 'secretive times' as I was, we can not always blame the parents. We were all taught that 'nice families do not discuss such things.' That was exactly what I was told when I reached out to a member of my family AND one of the sisters who taught at my elementary school. I think it was simply a prevailing attitude of times and backgrounds. The Irish I know specifically are very insular in their dealings with family business.

As for trusting church officials, teachers, etc., with our children, I have always been cautious. My daughter was not left with someone other than my mother until she was old enough to speak and articulate the events of her day. She was given age-appropriate information to protect herself. The statistics show that the church has no greater prevalence of child abuse than the general population. The media is just more likely to smear the church. I choose my friends and associates with great care and have learned not to live in a world of fear. It has been a long road.

I will gladly answer any questions via message. heart

Nov 20th 2012 new

There were and probably still are parents who absolutely could not believe that a priest or sister is capable of sexual abuse. I think the Church at one time had very high standards for clergy. Sure, there were problems with priests running off with women, but sexual abuse of kids? However erroneous their view, more than a few people's faith was linked to the behavior of the clergy...to the point that many parents never could fathom that a priest would abuse a child. Opening the doors of the priesthood to perverts obviously posed a huge danger. Parents went to priests, bishops, sisters, etc. and reported abuse expecting that the problems would be taken care of. In far too many cases nothing happened and often abusers were moved to fresh pastures where they continued their exploits.


The abuse crisis is really a symptom of the decline of the Church and a crisis of faith inside the Church itself, almost as if there is some sort of anti-Church within the Church. It's terrifying to think how high the networks of abusers go in the Church, without a doubt right to the highest ranks of the Vatican. Steve Brady of Roman Catholic Faithful tried to shed light on the corruption in the Church, despite anonymous threats and scorn from other Catholics. A few years back, I talked to a victim who told me that he once wanted to become a priest but now hates the Catholic Church. He said he never received an apology from anyone in the Church, despite what had happened to him and the years of volunteer service his parents had given to their parish. A very sad situation. But, look at the kids abused. Look at the churches being closed left and right. The Catholic Church is being wrecked from the inside. The last people who will figure this out are the dupes who follow whatever Father, a bishop or a nun says and never question a thing.




(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I have heard a lot of accounts now of the exodus from the Catholic Church which was supposedly ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

I have heard a lot of accounts now of the exodus from the Catholic Church which was supposedly caused by the "paedophilia scandal."

What I want to know, but no one seems to be asking about, is why a person would abandon Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is really, truly and substantially present to us in the Eucharist, over the sin of some other man? I mean, how does that make sense? Abandon God because a priest sinned? When did God promise impeccable pastors?...and Do these same individuals who abandon Christ stop associations with the parents of families who had the abuse reported to them by their children but ignored it for whatever reason?

One of the big things in the so-called "paedophilia scandal" that boggles my mind is why no one is upset with these parents who knew reports of the abuse or suspected immodest/unchaste behavior was going on...and still allowed their children private contact with these priests. How does that make any sense?

Sure, the uncovering of the sin to the light of day is disturbing and troubling, but how many parents have actually changed how they live their lives by the knowledge of this sin? How many parents have become vigilant and stopped allowing unsupervised access (I'm not referring to the Sacrament of Penance, but rather unchaperoned gatherings or field trips) of the priests to their children?

To my knowledge, at my parish, other than the VIRTUS training given to diocesan workers on how to reckognize signs of impropriety between adults and children and prevent escalation, the parents are pretty much complacent in allowing their children to be taken out of sight by priests and lay diocesan staff. How does that make any sense? I mean, there is this huge problem that practically everyone is now aware of, so what has changed on the part of parents?

I am asking this seriously, because I want to know seriously.

I'm not observing any change in my corner of the world on the part of parents, but maybe others are. I'd love to hear what anyone else has observed, or found in regard to my questions.

Thanks...

--hide--

Nov 20th 2012 new

(Quote) AnneMarie-641597 said: Elizabeth...As the survivor of such abuse (outside of the church), I can tell you that there ...
(Quote) AnneMarie-641597 said:

Elizabeth...As the survivor of such abuse (outside of the church), I can tell you that there is nothing 'lame' in any actions following these events. I absolutely turned my back on God for several years. Thankfully, God does not turn His back on us.

I have said it before in the fora, but I think all of us need to be aware of our potential audience when responding. Having opinions and not being afraid to voice them is a good thing. Being deliberately derogatory of any person is unnecessary.

Chelsea...good topic and good questions. Being a child of the 'secretive times' as I was, we can not always blame the parents. We were all taught that 'nice families do not discuss such things.' That was exactly what I was told when I reached out to a member of my family AND one of the sisters who taught at my elementary school. I think it was simply a prevailing attitude of times and backgrounds. The Irish I know specifically are very insular in their dealings with family business.

As for trusting church officials, teachers, etc., with our children, I have always been cautious. My daughter was not left with someone other than my mother until she was old enough to speak and articulate the events of her day. She was given age-appropriate information to protect herself. The statistics show that the church has no greater prevalence of child abuse than the general population. The media is just more likely to smear the church. I choose my friends and associates with great care and have learned not to live in a world of fear. It has been a long road.

I will gladly answer any questions via message.

--hide--

I apologize. I was confusing the victims with those who were not abused themselves, but left the church apon hearing about the incidents, which I know has happened. embarassed

Nov 20th 2012 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-114955 said: I apologize. I was confusing the victims with those who were not abused themselves, ...
(Quote) Elizabeth-114955 said:

I apologize. I was confusing the victims with those who were not abused themselves, but left the church apon hearing about the incidents, which I know has happened.

--hide--



Some no doubt have used the scandals to justify non-attendance. Locally, I have heard some say that the church closings were the icing on the cake after the scandals. One of the volunteers from our old parish said he'd had enough after he heard that his church was being shut down. What's even worse is that the clergy don't seem to care about who leaves because the truly "faithful" in their mind put up with whatever Church leaders do and keep their mouths shut.


Yes, many, maybe most, of the people who have quit going to Mass are lazy and want a justification for their actions. But there are people who have real reasons for being fed up with the Catholic Church. Watch Hand of God about an abuse case in Salem, MA, a once heavily-Catholic town where every Catholic school has closed in the past forty years.

Nov 21st 2012 new

(Quote) Sean-851370 said: Some no doubt have used the scandals to justify non-attendance. Locally, I have heard ...
(Quote) Sean-851370 said:




Some no doubt have used the scandals to justify non-attendance. Locally, I have heard some say that the church closings were the icing on the cake after the scandals. One of the volunteers from our old parish said he'd had enough after he heard that his church was being shut down. What's even worse is that the clergy don't seem to care about who leaves because the truly "faithful" in their mind put up with whatever Church leaders do and keep their mouths shut.


Yes, many, maybe most, of the people who have quit going to Mass are lazy and want a justification for their actions. But there are people who have real reasons for being fed up with the Catholic Church. Watch Hand of God about an abuse case in Salem, MA, a once heavily-Catholic town where every Catholic school has closed in the past forty years.

--hide--

But you would be surprised at how many of those who have suffered the abuse have returned and are happier having "come home."

Nov 21st 2012 new

(Quote) AnneMarie-641597 said: As for trusting church officials, teachers, etc., with our children, I have always been cauti...
(Quote) AnneMarie-641597 said:

As for trusting church officials, teachers, etc., with our children, I have always been cautious. My daughter was not left with someone other than my mother until she was old enough to speak and articulate the events of her day. She was given age-appropriate information to protect herself. The statistics show that the church has no greater prevalence of child abuse than the general population. The media is just more likely to smear the church. I choose my friends and associates with great care and have learned not to live in a world of fear. It has been a long road.

I will gladly answer any questions via message.

--hide--

It sounds like you actually took it seriously that this abuse was bad for children. Other parents seem to take the stance that, "it happened to me and I got over it and I'm ok, so if it happens to my kids they'll get over it and be ok." I find that disgusting.

Thanks for your input.

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