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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

11/25/2012 new
(Quote) Cory-789423 said: But what does equality mean? I don't think the author is saying women shouldn't have the same op...
(Quote) Cory-789423 said:



But what does equality mean? I don't think the author is saying women shouldn't have the same opportunities as men. I think she is arguing that in this day and age, women don't take into consideration the intrinsic value of men as providers and protectors. So as a result, men have been pushed out of their niche. So if we are not really needed to provide and protect, then we get the feeling we can just live in bachelor pads, get drunk on the weekends, have one-night stands, and live like that the rest of our lives. I mean, we won't have the responsibilities of fatherhood. Granted, this is an immature philosophy that sadly many men now believe.

To put this into perspective, in college I read The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway. The protagonist Jake is impotent, and this plays out in the book as he is in love with Brett, and her him, but they can't consummate their love. But Jake and his friends, all of whom are in love with Brett, are also impotent in the sense that they can't express their masculine traits. The reason they can't express their masculinity is because Brett is not expressing her femininity. She is twice-divorced, has had many sexual affairs, and has a boyish appearance. That's why God created Eve for Adam. She wasn't created to cook for Adam, clean for him, and wait on him hand and foot. No, she was created so that Adam's masculinity can be fully revealed. I firmly believe that women today have lost that message. If they want to marry a good man, they need to express their feminine qualities. Just like the author says, they need to let men be men. Let them lead. And we men need to respect women, to value them as women created in God's image. But we can't do that if women don't value themselves. Remember, how women act and behave will influence how we men will view them. Their femininity affects our masculinity.

--hide--


The love you describe sounds great (Men lead and protect- men need to respect women, to value them as women created in God's image), but many men treat women as a possession to dominate. They like to throw bible quotes at women to justify their need to control women. I am not saying that all men do this. With regard to what you said, "Remember, how women act and behave will influence how we men will view them. Their femininity affects our masculinity.", that holds true for women too. How a man acts and behaves (whether men respect women and values them or treats her like a subordinate to dominate) will influence how women view men also.

What I mean by equality is women should not be viewed as a subordinate just because we are women, whether in a marriage or in any other life situation.

I don't agree with the authors suggestion that the reason men don't want to get married rests in the fact that women are in the work force, if I understood that correctly. Men can still lead and protect even if both husband and wife work.

I didn't respond to engage in a debate. You asked for opinions and that's what I gave.
11/25/2012 new

Couldn't have said it better.


Institutionalized feminism has caused schools, universities,and workplaces to become VERY hostile places for heterosexual men (who don't fall into one "protected category" or another).


All my crowing in here and elsewhere about "wretched" women is perfectly described in that article. Feminism has made them unhappy and men are to blame. Talk about a crazy way of thinking.


I am newly and happily single and will remain so forever (I hope).



11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: I don't know how "feminism" became such a concept or in some way indicates war...
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

I don't know how "feminism" became such a concept or in some way indicates war on men. Women love men, but simply want to be treated as equals, and not as subordinates, in all areas of life. Why is that such an unreasonable concept.

Furthermore, I don't know how "feminism" and the "sexual revolution" became synonymous. They are two different things as far as I'm concerned.
--hide--


The article said, "They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them."

It's not "wrong" morally. But women who want to be treated as equals don't need protecting. And those who make more money than a man, well how can a man think he provides for someone who makes more money than he? Its' obvious that the one who makes more is the one who is providing. It's not "wrong" for a woman to pursue happiness in a career and makes lots of money. I'm just saying that I think it makes it not possible for the man who makes less to say to himself and feel confident that he provides for her. And as the author said men instinctively want to provide. We men see ourselves in terms of what we do. For many (but certainly not all) men if they are not needed to do something that a man would do (protect and provide) then they are not needed in their mind. No amount of a woman telling them "but I need you for emotional support" counteracts this because that's how women think -- not how men think.

Certainly this does not apply to all men. But like the author says that men need to provide and protect -- and I'll add they need to be needed for this. And due to either choice or a greater salary or other reasons then lots of women won't let them or don't need them for this.

This is why some men won't date women who make more than they. My ex-wife made twice what I did and while dating told me that in her experience and that of her female peers making the same that lots of men just moved on when they realized what their jobs were and what they made.

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Cory-789423 said: But what does equality mean? I don't think the author is saying women shouldn't ha...
(Quote) Cory-789423 said:



But what does equality mean? I don't think the author is saying women shouldn't have the same opportunities as men. I think she is arguing that in this day and age, women don't take into consideration the intrinsic value of men as providers and protectors. So as a result, men have been pushed out of their niche. So if we are not really needed to provide and protect, then we get the feeling we can just live in bachelor pads, get drunk on the weekends, have one-night stands, and live like that the rest of our lives. I mean, we won't have the responsibilities of fatherhood. Granted, this is an immature philosophy that sadly many men now believe.

To put this into perspective, in college I read The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway. The protagonist Jake is impotent, and this plays out in the book as he is in love with Brett, and her him, but they can't consummate their love. But Jake and his friends, all of whom are in love with Brett, are also impotent in the sense that they can't express their masculine traits. The reason they can't express their masculinity is because Brett is not expressing her femininity. She is twice-divorced, has had many sexual affairs, and has a boyish appearance. That's why God created Eve for Adam. She wasn't created to cook for Adam, clean for him, and wait on him hand and foot. No, she was created so that Adam's masculinity can be fully revealed. I firmly believe that women today have lost that message. If they want to marry a good man, they need to express their feminine qualities. Just like the author says, they need to let men be men. Let them lead. And we men need to respect women, to value them as women created in God's image. But we can't do that if women don't value themselves. Remember, how women act and behave will influence how we men will view them. Their femininity affects our masculinity.

--hide--


"So if we are not really needed to provide and protect, then we get the feeling we can just live in bachelor pads..." Yes, men need to be needed for both protect and provide or they don't think they are needed. I think that while women have the same rights to the same opportunities if they in fact make lots more than a man then realistically he is not providing. My ex-wife (who made double my salary) told me that many of her peers found it difficult to find men because of their salaries and position.

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Eric-114571 said: "So if we are not really needed to provide and protect, then we get the feeling we ca...
(Quote) Eric-114571 said:



"So if we are not really needed to provide and protect, then we get the feeling we can just live in bachelor pads..." Yes, men need to be needed for both protect and provide or they don't think they are needed. I think that while women have the same rights to the same opportunities if they in fact make lots more than a man then realistically he is not providing. My ex-wife (who made double my salary) told me that many of her peers found it difficult to find men because of their salaries and position.

--hide--


No. It was because of their awful attitudes and stilted priorities. They experienced all sorts of terrible indoctrination in college - especially at elite colleges.

11/25/2012 new

Following on Eric's point that women who make too much can't find men, well, there is another side to that coin: how picky are successful women? One lady I met wanted me to make more than her (goal $125K) and for the family to make $100K minimum in an area where the family average was $75K. She was terribly disappointed, but having lived with a former ex-boyfriend lawyer, many men would disappoint her financially. I wonder how many successful women pursue less-successful men? One female older doctor, single, did write an article explaining to younger professional women that they had to look not only at the equally or more successful men, but those making less than them too.

At Queen's University, I was a grad student in a lab. The prof had given fifteen years to a previous grad student for her Ph.D. The prof's peers cut funding to his lab because of low productivity. The cut happened soon after I arrived. I was frustrated, but he just used the feminist slogan 'you'll just have to be twice as good'. That was very upsetting as I needed the tools of the trade. So I published a respectful but anti-affirmative action (gender) opinion in the student paper. I was understandably unpopular with feminist-minded women. One I dated asked me 'why are there more male profs than female?' I responded with my personal experience above. She shunned me afterwards...interesting that it was all about her status. No consideration for that men might be handicapped or face hurdles. As it happened, at graduation ceremony we bumped into each other. She said 'hiiiiiii' as if she was missing something. So, that didn't work out. The point is: find a woman who does appreciate what you can provide.

The confusion is that men are expected to be protectors and providers. It gets weird when a man is expected to be emotionally available to a woman who he is competing with. It is also important to challenge women in the workplace. For example, in Canada there is a doctor shortage, one widely-accepted study showed that men work 8 hours/week more than women, and most med students are doctors. The newspapers are filled with stories of angry mothers finding that their female family doctors have quit their practice to raise a family. It is just silly to have a higher proportion of doctors be of a gender who work less, in the midst of a doctor shortage. Canada heavily subsidizes education, so those metrics should be discussed. Women might see it as insulting. So be it.




11/25/2012 new

One thing I don't understand, is that men are saying they want to be protectors and providers (which I would welcome) but my ex and others I have dated wanted me to work as I bring in a solid income. I would have loved to work only part time but he wanted a big house and lots of toys. I am now on the path to cut back my work over the next 3 years [by simplifying and downsizing my life] so I can be with my daughter more (whether there is a man in my life or not).

Maybe there are women that want to out earn their husbands but I am not one of them. As far as money goes, I would just like a man that is hardworking and can hold a job.

11/25/2012 new
(Quote) Eric-114571 said: The article said, "They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their ...
(Quote) Eric-114571 said:



The article said, "They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them."

It's not "wrong" morally. But women who want to be treated as equals don't need protecting. And those who make more money than a man, well how can a man think he provides for someone who makes more money than he? Its' obvious that the one who makes more is the one who is providing. It's not "wrong" for a woman to pursue happiness in a career and makes lots of money. I'm just saying that I think it makes it not possible for the man who makes less to say to himself and feel confident that he provides for her. And as the author said men instinctively want to provide. We men see ourselves in terms of what we do. For many (but certainly not all) men if they are not needed to do something that a man would do (protect and provide) then they are not needed in their mind. No amount of a woman telling them "but I need you for emotional support" counteracts this because that's how women think -- not how men think.

Certainly this does not apply to all men. But like the author says that men need to provide and protect -- and I'll add they need to be needed for this. And due to either choice or a greater salary or other reasons then lots of women won't let them or don't need them for this.

This is why some men won't date women who make more than they. My ex-wife made twice what I did and while dating told me that in her experience and that of her female peers making the same that lots of men just moved on when they realized what their jobs were and what they made.

--hide--


I am a teacher and do not make a great salary. I would welcome a man who makes more than me and to be the protector and provider. If the man happens to makes less than me, we will have to accept it. What I don't want is anyone treating me like a subordinate solely because he was born a man and I a woman.

Just because a woman might make more than a man, it doesn't mean the woman lacks the ability to treat a man as man and doesn't want providing or protecting. If men don't think they can provide or protect because a women makes more than them, then men need to change their thinking about this. Do you think its better for a woman to change her job specifically to make less money and work as hard, or that a woman should stop working and the family to struggle financially, just to satisfy her husbands ideals? We, unfortunately, live in a two income world and financial security for ourselves and our children is important.
11/25/2012 new
(Quote) Marirose-887295 said: One thing I don't understand, is that men are saying they want to be protectors and providers (which I w...
(Quote) Marirose-887295 said:

One thing I don't understand, is that men are saying they want to be protectors and providers (which I would welcome) but my ex and others I have dated wanted me to work as I bring in a solid income. I would have loved to work only part time but he wanted a big house and lots of toys. I am now on the path to cut back my work over the next 3 years [by simplifying and downsizing my life] so I can be with my daughter more (whether there is a man in my life or not).

Maybe there are women that want to out earn their husbands but I am not one of them. As far as money goes, I would just like a man that is hardworking and can hold a job.

--hide--


Amen to that.
11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: I mean "feminism" such a bad concept
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

I mean "feminism" such a bad concept
--hide--
One problem is that "feminism" has taken on so many different meanings that it's necessary to define it when you speak of it. The meaning of the word has become muddled throughout the years.

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