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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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11/25/2012 new

Well, there’s a lot there to chew on, and there isn’t the time nor space here to address every aspect of this debate so here’s my two cents. I don’t think there is a war on men. I think there is a war on family values, which didn’t start in the 1960’s with the feminist movement in the Western world either. The war on family values has been ongoing for centuries, and it is a battle that is fought in the hearts, minds and souls of every adult who has ever lived. Temptation to sin is always there.

Women who get an education and who work so that they contribute to their own well-being and their family’s well-being are not the cause of sin, family break-down or a war on men. Some men can’t deal with the fact that they no longer have all of the economic power that they used to. Sorry to say this, but that economic power was not always used to uphold family values.

Women who earned degrees and entered the workforce didn’t destroy families or marriages. Long before women started to break barriers in universities and the workplace, some men would leave their wives and children for younger “sexier” women who didn’t have wrinkles or middle-aged spread so that they could have the status of attracting a hot young thing on their arms. I did not say all men, just some men. Years ago, 60 Minutes did a piece on the "Homeless Women of Beverly Hills". It was an eye-opener.

I’m not sure what the statistics are for the year 2012, but for the longest time in the twentieth century, most single parent families headed by women were below the poverty line. So, an abandoned wife, or a widow (whether with children or not) was in a position of earning less to support herself (and her family) because the job/career system worked in favour of men. If her husband left her for a “hot young thing”, then she was blamed for not paying enough attention to her appearance, letting herself go, burning dinner when she was overwhelmed or whatever. Did anyone blame the man for not upholding his marital vows?

Granted, there are women who do not uphold their marital vows, and there are also marriages that break down as a result of two people not being able to get along anymore, or a myriad of other reasons. I am not throwing stones at those who have experienced the pain of divorce.

While it can be awkward at times for men and women in the same career paths or workplaces to relate to each other as colleagues or competitors instead of potential romantic partners, there are couples where the husband and wife both have high-powered careers as doctors, lawyers, government officials, or less prominent careers as carpenter and full-time cashier and so on. I see it happen all the time. Do men remember being boys in grade school when there were girls in their class who were really smart and got good grades? Well, when those girls grow up they don't all of the sudden become airheads. God did not intend for any of us, male or female to hide our lights under a bushel. Is Lolo Jones or Venus Williams supposed to stop pursuing athletics so that she doesn't alienate men?

Trying to paint women who have pursued career goals as money hungry is also unfair. Most of the women in my social circles are middle class and work because shelter, heat, electricity, transportation, shoes, basic clothing and food are not free.

One of my mentors who is female, married and has children once said to me that work-life balance is always challenging, but in a successful marriage, the husband and wife at different points take a career lead. She spent more time with the kids when they were younger, putting her career on the back burner. When she was given a career opportunity that was too good to pass up, her husband geared down his career goals and stayed back with the kids more. They both balanced their careers with their family and their marriage. Being willing to compromise and work together is the key.

As I said just some random thoughts. I have to get ready for Mass. God Bless! Dove

11/25/2012 new

I was expressing my concerns about something similar this morning.


I think they have gone to far.So many women and young girls are no longer feminine .What a shame to lose this.Many women even

feel it best to have a child on their own.The sexual revolution is hurting us both even if many don't want to admit it.Hence the aggressive attitudes on both sides.We weren't meant to live like this.Changing God's natural balance often causes problems.


Unfortunately this has far reaching implications.Marriages are at a low ,divorce is high and children are growing up without a lot of love or male and female role models .We have laid back boys who are not achieving ,some even say the woman would take care of them.Men who just use women and vice versa.So sad.


Catholic men and women I hope we could make a difference.

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Angela-374523 said: Well, there’s a lot there to chew on, and there isn’t the time nor space here to add...
(Quote) Angela-374523 said:

Well, there’s a lot there to chew on, and there isn’t the time nor space here to address every aspect of this debate so here’s my two cents. I don’t think there is a war on men. I think there is a war on family values, which didn’t start in the 1960’s with the feminist movement in the Western world either. The war on family values has been ongoing for centuries, and it is a battle that is fought in the hearts, minds and souls of every adult who has ever lived. Temptation to sin is always there.

Women who get an education and who work so that they contribute to their own well-being and their family’s well-being are not the cause of sin, family break-down or a war on men. Some men can’t deal with the fact that they no longer have all of the economic power that they used to. Sorry to say this, but that economic power was not always used to uphold family values.

Women who earned degrees and entered the workforce didn’t destroy families or marriages. Long before women started to break barriers in universities and the workplace, some men would leave their wives and children for younger “sexier” women who didn’t have wrinkles or middle-aged spread so that they could have the status of attracting a hot young thing on their arms. I did not say all men, just some men. Years ago, 60 Minutes did a piece on the "Homeless Women of Beverly Hills". It was an eye-opener.

I’m not sure what the statistics are for the year 2012, but for the longest time in the twentieth century, most single parent families headed by women were below the poverty line. So, an abandoned wife, or a widow (whether with children or not) was in a position of earning less to support herself (and her family) because the job/career system worked in favour of men. If her husband left her for a “hot young thing”, then she was blamed for not paying enough attention to her appearance, letting herself go, burning dinner when she was overwhelmed or whatever. Did anyone blame the man for not upholding his marital vows?

Granted, there are women who do not uphold their marital vows, and there are also marriages that break down as a result of two people not being able to get along anymore, or a myriad of other reasons. I am not throwing stones at those who have experienced the pain of divorce.

While it can be awkward at times for men and women in the same career paths or workplaces to relate to each other as colleagues or competitors instead of potential romantic partners, there are couples where the husband and wife both have high-powered careers as doctors, lawyers, government officials, or less prominent careers as carpenter and full-time cashier and so on. I see it happen all the time. Do men remember being boys in grade school when there were girls in their class who were really smart and got good grades? Well, when those girls grow up they don't all of the sudden become airheads. God did not intend for any of us, male or female to hide our lights under a bushel. Is Lolo Jones or Venus Williams supposed to stop pursuing athletics so that she doesn't alienate men?

Trying to paint women who have pursued career goals as money hungry is also unfair. Most of the women in my social circles are middle class and work because shelter, heat, electricity, transportation, shoes, basic clothing and food are not free.

One of my mentors who is female, married and has children once said to me that work-life balance is always challenging, but in a successful marriage, the husband and wife at different points take a career lead. She spent more time with the kids when they were younger, putting her career on the back burner. When she was given a career opportunity that was too good to pass up, her husband geared down his career goals and stayed back with the kids more. They both balanced their careers with their family and their marriage. Being willing to compromise and work together is the key.

As I said just some random thoughts. I have to get ready for Mass. God Bless!

--hide--
Thank You, Angela and Josephine

Men that say they don't want games--well pretending to be an air-head is one of them!

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: I am a teacher and do not make a great salary. I would welcome a man who makes more than me ...
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

I am a teacher and do not make a great salary. I would welcome a man who makes more than me and to be the protector and provider. If the man happens to makes less than me, we will have to accept it. What I don't want is anyone treating me like a subordinate solely because he was born a man and I a woman.

Just because a woman might make more than a man, it doesn't mean the woman lacks the ability to treat a man as man and doesn't want providing or protecting. If men don't think they can provide or protect because a women makes more than them, then men need to change their thinking about this. Do you think its better for a woman to change her job specifically to make less money and work as hard, or that a woman should stop working and the family to struggle financially, just to satisfy her husbands ideals? We, unfortunately, live in a two income world and financial security for ourselves and our children is important.
--hide--


In any partnership involving money when one person makes significantly more than the other then it's clear who's doing the heavy lifting. I don't see how a guy can be said to be "providing" if he makes less.

Let's apply logic to this: if the man makes less and can still be seen to be "providing" then the wife who makes more logically is also providing -- in fact doing it better than the man. The man is not the main provider.

Ref. the specifics about the woman's career that you made and her changing: I'm suggesting her choices will have an impact on the number of choices she has but it's not wrong. If I choose to make my living by flipping hamburgers at McDonald's and working full time then that's honest work and nothing wrong with it. But I can tell you that decision will limit my opportunities in the dating world. It's not my place to say what people "should" do -- they have choices. I'm just agreeing with the Fox News article that men are designed and wired to want to do both provide and protect and need to be needed for both.

11/25/2012 new

I think one factor that some of the younger men here may not realize is what happened with male/female relationships after the sexual revolution - so starting in the mid-70's or so.

I was married at the time, but after I was divorced (and annulled), what I saw in dating was that MANY men did not want to protect and provide. (Remember, it always takes two to tango). They wanted women to pay for dates or at least go half and half on a date. I saw this over and over again. They wanted sex (and usually by the 3rd date) or you didn't see them again (and that is definitely not being protective of a woman). They would not commit to marriage, but wanted to "live together" - if they even wanted that. Many had "steady girlfriends", but then would ask out other women on the side. In fact, even many of the ones that were married, even with small children at home, wanted their wives to work so they could have more "things".

And, I know all of this, because it all happened to me and to my friends and cousins over and over. Now, I did always live in the city (in Chicago) and at one point in the beach suburbs of Los Angeles, so I don't know what was going on in more rural areas. But here, men were equally and, in some cases, more than equally to blame in the change in relationships. Women went to work because they had to in many cases. I NEVER met one gentleman when I was dating that said, oh, I'd be happy to support you so if we get married you could quit working if you would like to. In fact, I've had gentlemen say to me when I suggested that I might retire early, well how will we have enough to live on? (and I don't live an expensive lifestyle. in order to retire early, I cut back on a lifestyle that I had already simplified - for example I don't own a car, so I can afford to go away for a month in the winter). But, virtually all of the men I have dated until this year wanted me to work to contribute to the household income and luxurious lifestyle). This year, because I have gone out with a few men who are retired, it is a slightly different story- but not sure what it would be like with someone who hasn't retired.

So, the blame should not be placed here on women. The blame should be shared equally. And, if some wonderful gentleman wants to protect and provide for me, I would be thrilled! (And, just because I'm a retired physician does not mean that I am wealthy. CEO's are wealthy, most doctors are not m- especially with what has happened with the U.S. economy).

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Cory-789423 said: But what does equality mean? I don't think the author is saying women shouldn't ha...
(Quote) Cory-789423 said:



But what does equality mean? I don't think the author is saying women shouldn't have the same opportunities as men. I think she is arguing that in this day and age, women don't take into consideration the intrinsic value of men as providers and protectors. So as a result, men have been pushed out of their niche. So if we are not really needed to provide and protect, then we get the feeling we can just live in bachelor pads, get drunk on the weekends, have one-night stands, and live like that the rest of our lives. I mean, we won't have the responsibilities of fatherhood. Granted, this is an immature philosophy that sadly many men now believe.

To put this into perspective, in college I read The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway. The protagonist Jake is impotent, and this plays out in the book as he is in love with Brett, and her him, but they can't consummate their love. But Jake and his friends, all of whom are in love with Brett, are also impotent in the sense that they can't express their masculine traits. The reason they can't express their masculinity is because Brett is not expressing her femininity. She is twice-divorced, has had many sexual affairs, and has a boyish appearance. That's why God created Eve for Adam. She wasn't created to cook for Adam, clean for him, and wait on him hand and foot. No, she was created so that Adam's masculinity can be fully revealed. I firmly believe that women today have lost that message. If they want to marry a good man, they need to express their feminine qualities. Just like the author says, they need to let men be men. Let them lead. And we men need to respect women, to value them as women created in God's image. But we can't do that if women don't value themselves. Remember, how women act and behave will influence how we men will view them. Their femininity affects our masculinity.

--hide--


Yes Cory, I agree with how you interpret the article as well as the perspective you have expressed. Well said! However... being a single mom/woman, I am forced to provide for myself and have to rise to that. What came first, the chicken or the egg? My providing for myself, or the fact that I have to provide for myself? At this point, I just do it because I have to and no one else will. But to be honest, I take pride that I am able to. Do I wish it was different and I didn't live by myself? Sure. Newton said it best, "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Thus, I keep moving forward.

Cat

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: I think one factor that some of the younger men here may not realize is what happened with male...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:

I think one factor that some of the younger men here may not realize is what happened with male/female relationships after the sexual revolution - so starting in the mid-70's or so.

I was married at the time, but after I was divorced (and annulled), what I saw in dating was that MANY men did not want to protect and provide. (Remember, it always takes two to tango). They wanted women to pay for dates or at least go half and half on a date. I saw this over and over again. They wanted sex (and usually by the 3rd date) or you didn't see them again (and that is definitely not being protective of a woman). They would not commit to marriage, but wanted to "live together" - if they even wanted that. Many had "steady girlfriends", but then would ask out other women on the side. In fact, even many of the ones that were married, even with small children at home, wanted their wives to work so they could have more "things".

And, I know all of this, because it all happened to me and to my friends and cousins over and over. Now, I did always live in the city (in Chicago) and at one point in the beach suburbs of Los Angeles, so I don't know what was going on in more rural areas. But here, men were equally and, in some cases, more than equally to blame in the change in relationships. Women went to work because they had to in many cases. I NEVER met one gentleman when I was dating that said, oh, I'd be happy to support you so if we get married you could quit working if you would like to. In fact, I've had gentlemen say to me when I suggested that I might retire early, well how will we have enough to live on? (and I don't live an expensive lifestyle. in order to retire early, I cut back on a lifestyle that I had already simplified - for example I don't own a car, so I can afford to go away for a month in the winter). But, virtually all of the men I have dated until this year wanted me to work to contribute to the household income and luxurious lifestyle). This year, because I have gone out with a few men who are retired, it is a slightly different story- but not sure what it would be like with someone who hasn't retired.

So, the blame should not be placed here on women. The blame should be shared equally. And, if some wonderful gentleman wants to protect and provide for me, I would be thrilled! (And, just because I'm a retired physician does not mean that I am wealthy. CEO's are wealthy, most doctors are not m- especially with what has happened with the U.S. economy).

--hide--
THANK YOU! That has been my experience as well. In the meantime, I need to provide for my family. So shoot me if I happen to be good at it.

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Marirose-887295 said: THANK YOU! That has been my experience as well. In the meantime, I need to provide for my fami...
(Quote) Marirose-887295 said:

THANK YOU! That has been my experience as well. In the meantime, I need to provide for my family. So shoot me if I happen to be good at it.

--hide--


No one should "shoot" you, they should commend you for doing what you have done and realize that what you have done for your family, you would also do for a husband who later in life might become ill or disabled or lose a job, etc. It speaks to your love for those you care about, and your willingness to step up to provide for them!

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Cory-789423 said: Came across an article in which the author laments the ever-changing gender roles and exposes the ...
(Quote) Cory-789423 said:

Came across an article in which the author laments the ever-changing gender roles and exposes the consequences of feminism. www.foxnews.com

Thoughts?

--hide--

These kind of articles exhaust me because they just don't ring true with a lot of women's experience, especially mine. In the end, I think the recipe for a long-lasting happy marriage is simple and absolutely possible: but both parties have to love each other more than themselves because it takes a whole lot of compromise to see that vow through. Unfortunately, most of us are far too selfish.

The end

11/25/2012 new

(Quote) Marirose-887295 said: One thing I don't understand, is that men are saying they want to be protectors and provid...
(Quote) Marirose-887295 said:

One thing I don't understand, is that men are saying they want to be protectors and providers (which I would welcome) but my ex and others I have dated wanted me to work as I bring in a solid income. I would have loved to work only part time but he wanted a big house and lots of toys. I am now on the path to cut back my work over the next 3 years [by simplifying and downsizing my life] so I can be with my daughter more (whether there is a man in my life or not).

Maybe there are women that want to out earn their husbands but I am not one of them. As far as money goes, I would just like a man that is hardworking and can hold a job.

--hide--



Well, the original story was about 'war on men' discussing why men were seemingly unfairly criticized in society at large. The two major criticisms of men I have experienced are:
1)Men have an unfair amount of power in the workplace. 2)Men don't earn enough to provide.
They both concern the status of women, but unfairly addressed means men are put down unfairly.

As for #1, equality means women may be seen as competitors. This means affirmative action may be opposed by someone who believes in equality. Many women take the feminist position that affirmative action is appropriate, even though a man may be handicapped because of it. So, the man is criticized as being a misogynist. As for #2 if a woman does not date a man who earns less, or shuns him for lack of pay, that is understandable if their combined income is less than the average family income. However, men are often relegated to a pocketbook, and have to pay for children while being alienated from them. The article talked about some men not wanting to become married, and fatigued by such prevalent attitudes.

It is unfortunate that couples do not derive similar happiness from material consumption. However that is up to the couple. I don't like to travel as some women do, for example. Those things are unique to the couple.

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