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Since Mormons believe in divine progression (God was once a man and all good men can become gods.) Doesn't that make Mormonism heretical and as such wouldn't voting for Romney be a mortal sin?

11/26/2012 new

rolling eyes Voting can never be a mortal sin.

11/26/2012 new

(Quote) Conley-921282 said: Since Mormons believe in divine progression (God was once a man and all good men can become gods...
(Quote) Conley-921282 said:

Since Mormons believe in divine progression (God was once a man and all good men can become gods.) Doesn't that make Mormonism heretical and as such wouldn't voting for Romney be a mortal sin?

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Mormonism is heretical (heretical meaning "related to heresy") in that it is an institutionalized rejection of the role and authority of the Catholic Church on earth for man's salvation. That said, mormons are not heretics, since they are not baptized; they're merely infidels. To be an heretic, one must first be baptized and secondly either doubt obstinately or deny obstinately an article which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.

That said, voting is a neutral act (it is neither good nor evil in and of itself). Since voting is a neutral act, the intention and circumstances would have to be judged in order to declare voting for a specific person to be gravely sinful. Beyond that, one would then have to determine if the grave evil was committed with full knowledge and consent of the will in order to judge the grave sin to be either mortal or not imputed to the individual.

11/26/2012 new

(Quote) Cathy-620979 said: Voting can never be a mortal sin.
(Quote) Cathy-620979 said:

Voting can never be a mortal sin.

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Voting can be a mortal sin if one does it as formal aid toward a grave evil, with full knowledge and consent of the will.

11/27/2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Mormonism is heretical (heretical meaning "related to heresy") in that it is ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Mormonism is heretical (heretical meaning "related to heresy") in that it is an institutionalized rejection of the role and authority of the Catholic Church on earth for man's salvation. That said, mormons are not heretics, since they are not baptized; they're merely infidels. To be an heretic, one must first be baptized and secondly either doubt obstinately or deny obstinately an article which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.

That said, voting is a neutral act (it is neither good nor evil in and of itself). Since voting is a neutral act, the intention and circumstances would have to be judged in order to declare voting for a specific person to be gravely sinful. Beyond that, one would then have to determine if the grave evil was committed with full knowledge and consent of the will in order to judge the grave sin to be either mortal or not imputed to the individual.

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Not to split hairs, but Mormons do have baptisim. One could argue that it's not a Christian one, but the unqualified assertion that they aren't baptised is incorrect.

The question of "heretic vs infidel" is an interesting one and there are some meritorious arguments on both sides.

I think that you are on solid ground in your analyis of the voting question. "Never" is overly strong, but the charge of "mortal sin" is being thrown around far to easily.

11/28/2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: Not to split hairs, but Mormons do have baptisim. One could argue that i...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Not to split hairs, but Mormons do have baptisim. One could argue that it's not a Christian one, but the unqualified assertion that they aren't baptised is incorrect.

The question of "heretic vs infidel" is an interesting one and there are some meritorious arguments on both sides.

I think that you are on solid ground in your analyis of the voting question. "Never" is overly strong, but the charge of "mortal sin" is being thrown around far to easily.

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My understanding is that Mormon baptism is not recognized as a valid, Christian baptism by the Catholic Church because it is not Trinitarian. I think this is partly because members of the LDS Church generally do not hold the Holy Spirit to be a person of God. Their approach to Jesus Christ is also a little different, but I am not well versed in the subtleties. But to be validly baptized does require use of the Trinitarian formula at the end of Matthew (valid form), along with use of some water (valid matter). Interestingly, a non-Catholic can validly baptize someone if they use the correct form and matter. This was determined when many early Christians asked the Roman soldiers to baptize them before their executions by torture.

I would define a heretic as someone who claims to represent the Christian Faith but does so with false doctrine. Thus, one would not need to be baptized per se, but only to represent that one was speaking of the true, Christian faith, yet teaching false doctrine as defined by the Church. There are many such heretics on Catholic University Campuses throughout the USA and the world.

11/28/2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: Not to split hairs, but Mormons do have baptisim. One could argue that i...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Not to split hairs, but Mormons do have baptisim. One could argue that it's not a Christian one, but the unqualified assertion that they aren't baptised is incorrect.

The question of "heretic vs infidel" is an interesting one and there are some meritorious arguments on both sides.

I think that you are on solid ground in your analyis of the voting question. "Never" is overly strong, but the charge of "mortal sin" is being thrown around far to easily.

--hide--


Mormons do not have Baptism. They use the term "baptism" in an equivocal sense to name a practice which is not Baptism. A Baptism, as we are discussing, is a sacrament which must be performed both validly and licitly for a salvific effect.

There are four requirements for a valid sacrament: the form (baptismal formula), the matter (the water), the minister (the one performing the baptism, ordinarily a priest or deacon, extraordinarily anyone with human hands) and the intention to do as the Church does. Mormon "baptism" is lacking in one of the requirements: intention to do as the Church does. Mormons do not believe in a Trinity of three divine Persons subsisting in one Godhead; mormons believe, rather, that three pre-existing separate "gods" came together to "save" man and that man is not substantially different from "a god" himself. Mormons for that reason do not intend to do as the Church does in their "baptisms."

So, the fact remains, mormons are not baptized, unless of course a person apostatizes from either Catholicism or one of the heretical or schismatic sects who do have a Baptism and then joins up with the mormons.

11/28/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: My understanding is that Mormon baptism is not recognized as a valid, Christian baptism ...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



My understanding is that Mormon baptism is not recognized as a valid, Christian baptism by the Catholic Church because it is not Trinitarian. I think this is partly because members of the LDS Church generally do not hold the Holy Spirit to be a person of God. Their approach to Jesus Christ is also a little different, but I am not well versed in the subtleties. But to be validly baptized does require use of the Trinitarian formula at the end of Matthew (valid form), along with use of some water (valid matter). Interestingly, a non-Catholic can validly baptize someone if they use the correct form and matter. This was determined when many early Christians asked the Roman soldiers to baptize them before their executions by torture.

I would define a heretic as someone who claims to represent the Christian Faith but does so with false doctrine. Thus, one would not need to be baptized per se, but only to represent that one was speaking of the true, Christian faith, yet teaching false doctrine as defined by the Church. There are many such heretics on Catholic University Campuses throughout the USA and the world.

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We don't recognize their baptisms as valid. Obviously they have a different view on that. My point is that if one wants to argue that they are not Christian it requires more than a statement that they do not have baptism- they will claim they do and you're back to where you started.

Your definition of heretic would cover Mormonism.

11/28/2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Mormons do not have Baptism. They use the term "baptism" in an equivocal sens...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Mormons do not have Baptism. They use the term "baptism" in an equivocal sense to name a practice which is not Baptism. A Baptism, as we are discussing, is a sacrament which must be performed both validly and licitly for a salvific effect.

There are four requirements for a valid sacrament: the form (baptismal formula), the matter (the water), the minister (the one performing the baptism, ordinarily a priest or deacon, extraordinarily anyone with human hands) and the intention to do as the Church does. Mormon "baptism" is lacking in one of the requirements: intention to do as the Church does. Mormons do not believe in a Trinity of three divine Persons subsisting in one Godhead; mormons believe, rather, that three pre-existing separate "gods" came together to "save" man and that man is not substantially different from "a god" himself. Mormons for that reason do not intend to do as the Church does in their "baptisms."

So, the fact remains, mormons are not baptized, unless of course a person apostatizes from either Catholicism or one of the heretical or schismatic sects who do have a Baptism and then joins up with the mormons.

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...and if you take that argument to a Mormon they will simply turn it 180 degrees on you.

My point is not that I think Mormons have a valid Catholic baptism. My point is that as an argument to anybody but somebody who already agrees with you, your logic is not good. To a neutral observer you are dangerously close to making a circular argument; Mormons aren't Christian because they don't have a valid Baptism. Their baptisms aren't valid because they aren't Christian.

I realize that is not exactly what you have said, but your argument is utterly dependant on everyone agreeing what constitutes a valid baptism AND that baptism is necessary to being Christian. Regardless of the first point, it's worth pointing out that are Protestants who will disagree with that later point. I know Protestants who think baptism is unnecessary, but I can't say that I know any who would agree that the Mormons have a correct view of the Holy Trinity or the validity of the Book of Mormon, etc.

Arguing about who's baptism is right detracts from the rather gaping theological differences.

11/28/2012 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: ...and if you take that argument to a Mormon they will simply turn it 180 degrees on you.
(Quote) John-336509 said:



...and if you take that argument to a Mormon they will simply turn it 180 degrees on you.



My point is not that I think Mormons have a valid Catholic baptism. My point is that as an argument to anybody but somebody who already agrees with you, your logic is not good. To a neutral observer you are dangerously close to making a circular argument; Mormons aren't Christian because they don't have a valid Baptism. Their baptisms aren't valid because they aren't Christian.



I realize that is not exactly what you have said, but your argument is utterly dependant on everyone agreeing what constitutes a valid baptism AND that baptism is necessary to being Christian. Regardless of the first point, it's worth pointing out that are Protestants who will disagree with that later point. I know Protestants who think baptism is unnecessary, but I can't say that I know any who would agree that the Mormons have a correct view of the Holy Trinity or the validity of the Book of Mormon, etc.



Arguing about who's baptism is right detracts from the rather gaping theological differences.

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I think the argument is better summarized as "Mormons are henotheists, therefore they aren't Christian. Since they aren't Christian, they don't have a valid Baptism", which isn't circular at all.
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