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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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12/08/2012 new

(Quote) Ron-565573 said: I would never go back to that church. There are enough other things to argue about that we shouldn&...
(Quote) Ron-565573 said:

I would never go back to that church. There are enough other things to argue about that we shouldn't have to worry about such trivial things as the form of taking communion and etc.

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Eh, I disagree with you on that. The notion that anything pertaining to Jesus' physical Presence (i.e. 'communion', 'Eucharist', etc.) as being "trivial" is absurd. Every Catholic should strive to worthily and reverently receive our Lord in His eucharistic Form. Is He divine or isn't He--we know He is, so treat Him as such.

Fighting over calling the Third Being of the Trinity 'Holy Ghost' vs. 'Holy Spirit' is trivial. Dissension over how to receive Christ at Mass, not so much.

12/08/2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: Your free to wear what you want and I am free to wear jeans.
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

Your free to wear what you want and I am free to wear jeans.
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Yes, you are free to wear jeans.

But let me ask you a couple of questions. If your boss invited you to sit down dinner with clients, would you wear jeans? If you were invited to dinner at the White House, would you wear jeans? Would that not be a sign of disrespect?

It does not matter if you prefer the tradional Latin Mass or the new mass, you are attending the Feast given to us by Jesus Christ. You are in the presence of God hImself. Should you treat Him with less respect?

12/08/2012 new

Josephine, Interestingly, Padre Pio would dismiss female parishoners from the confessional for inappropriate clothing, before hearing their confession. We are not talking about jeans, but hem line, etc. Jeans would have been unheard in that setting, because of the Church's attitude about cross-dressing. I think he was our only priest stigmatist. He was probably one of the most famous confessors ever, And witnesses were in awe of his Masses. Remember we all look through a glass darkly, and that we live in a time when it's no surprise to us that there is a case before the Supreme Court about women gaining the "opportunity" to fight on the front lines, along side their male counterparts.
The TLM movement is about upholding "tradition" especially inside the doors of the Church where the priest stands as the God's authority in that space just as he is the "alter Christus" at the altar. And that tradition of honoring God is heaped with abuse almost everywhere else. That tradition includes "wearing our Sunday best", etc on the Sabbath.
The American Church gave up on the veil issue because we are generally such a rebellious bunch.

12/08/2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: Your free to wear what you want and I am free to wear jeans.
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

Your free to wear what you want and I am free to wear jeans.
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Josephine, you are free to wear jeans. You are free to do many things but are they always the better thing to do? Paul and Richard addressed this well and I would just be repeating their comments. I have worn jeans to Mass on the rare occassion as I otherwise might not have attended, but I do try dress up as this is an important event. We dress appropriately for important events in our lives: job interviews, meetings with clients, formal occassions, etc. Shouldn't we show our Lord the same or better respect?

12/08/2012 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Yes, you are free to wear jeans. But let me ask you a couple of questions. If you...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Yes, you are free to wear jeans.



But let me ask you a couple of questions. If your boss invited you to sit down dinner with clients, would you wear jeans? If you were invited to dinner at the White House, would you wear jeans? Would that not be a sign of disrespect?



It does not matter if you prefer the tradional Latin Mass or the new mass, you are attending the Feast given to us by Jesus Christ. You are in the presence of God hImself. Should you treat Him with less respect?

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Are you all finished bashing me for wearing jeans yet?

Paul, to answer your question, if I were invited to the white house or had to go to a meeting with my boss, I would wear the type of clothes that everyone else was wearing. If people went to the white house wearing jeans I would. If not I wouldn't. At church, I wear what other people wear. Some people dress up and some people wear clothes that are even less casual than jeans. I don't dress worse than anyone else.

The bottom line is it's between me and God what I wear. God knows what's in my heart and at least I am in church. I'm sure of all things I have done in my life, I am not going to the cooker for wearing jeans.

Why don't you all go talk to the non Christians, pagans and devil worshipers instead of harping on practicing Catholics for what we choose to wear to Church.

I will now allow you to have the last word because I will not be responding further. This was the first time I checked this room, and responded to a thead in this room, because I wanted to learn more about the Latin rite, and I have learned enough. Now I remember why I haven't been here before.

God Bless all your non judgemental hearts and have a good Sunday.
12/09/2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: The format of the Tradtional Latin Mass restrains the priest much more than the for...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




The format of the Tradtional Latin Mass restrains the priest much more than the format of the Novus Ordo Mass. The attention of the parishioners in the Latin Mass is directed towards the Tabernacle, whereas the attention in the Novus Ordo is directed towards the priest, who is facing the people.

You are correct to point out how the priest is the issue and not the Missal, but it's far too easy for a priest to change the wording in a prayer at his whim when the Mass is offered in the vernacular. As I wrote previously, it wouldn't make sense for him to change the Latin because none of the people in the Church wouldn't even know what he was saying if he did.

It's a moot point. The vocations to the priesthood are disproportionately coming from the orders where the Traditional Latin Mass is offered; we know where the future of the Church is in this area.

This year the Archdiocese of New York had ONE priest ordained.

www.nytimes.com

And guess what form he used to celebrate his first Mass. (I'll give you two, John.) ;) sthughofcluny.org

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Unquestionably the rubrics of the Tridentine Mass are stricter than those of the NO. And even if they weren't, a lack of fluency in Latin would no doubt inhibit many priests from ad libbing the Mass. On the other hand, if the priest in question is changing the words because they are lazy or sloppy, doing it in Latin would not stop him, and, since nobody in the congregation would know the difference anyway, such a priest might actually be more prone to quietly butcher the Mass quietly in Latin than loudly in the vernacular.

I agree that it is true that the format of the NO Mass tends to direct the attention more towards the priest. The actual point of attention of any given parishioner is going to be where ever that individual chooses to fix it. I personally don't find one form any more inherently "distracting" than another, but your mileage may vary. I'm sure that varies from personality to personality.

Not entirely sure what you're holding to be a moot point. If you're saying the men graduating from the seminaries now are more conservative and traditional, I agree and am mostly fine with that.

And I'm not sure how to take the "...and guess what form he used..." comment. It is coming across to me as some kind of "you're wrong" sort of thing, but I really don't know why that would be applicable. I have no problem with any form of the Latin or any other Rite of the Church. My problem is with those who insist that their personal preference is inherently better than any other, or, worse yet, who insist that their personal preference is God's preference. I think people should go to whatever Mass does them the most good. Which form that is completely does not matter to me. So why the form of Mass chosen by some priest in New York matters to anything is beyond me.

12/09/2012 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: I really don't think that the average TLM attendee thinks that he/she is some form of superior...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

I really don't think that the average TLM attendee thinks that he/she is some form of superior human being. Many that I know were ex Eucharistic Ministers or played groovy guitar tunes during Mass at one time in the past. The one thing they share is as one put it was "the penny dropped" . I am attending Mass and Benediction for the First Friday shortly. The first time I attended I was just about moved to tears due to the reverence and acknowledgement of the Real Presence. During my former NO life a priest would delegate the role to a "Deacon" (a married guy) because he could not be bothered to hang around because he was playing golf or the like. My NO experiences include:

1) Being refused Holy Communion and being told that I am disobedient for not accepting Our Lord in my Hand.

2) At a Funeral Mass the priest saying before the Consecration "kneel now if you want to?"

3) Being marginalised for refusing to attend a Retreat with an image of a woman on a cross.

4) Being told that Martin Luther was a good guy.

5) Being at a Mass where non Catholics who had no idea what the Eucharist was being invited to partake to make it more "inclusive".

The preaching at the TLM is solid and orthodox and that is why I attend.

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It may well be the case that the preaching at the Mass you go to is solid and orthodox, but that is a function of the priest, not the form of the Mass.

Unless somebody here is claiming it is "solid and orthodox" to single out a vistor to a parish and tell them they shouldn't receive communion if the don't normally go to the EF, it is obvious that a Tridentine Mass does not guarantee quality preaching, or even a Christian attitude.

12/09/2012 new

(Quote) Chris-427945 said: Eh, I disagree with you on that. The notion that anything pertaining to Jesus' physic...
(Quote) Chris-427945 said:



Eh, I disagree with you on that. The notion that anything pertaining to Jesus' physical Presence (i.e. 'communion', 'Eucharist', etc.) as being "trivial" is absurd. Every Catholic should strive to worthily and reverently receive our Lord in His eucharistic Form. Is He divine or isn't He--we know He is, so treat Him as such.

Fighting over calling the Third Being of the Trinity 'Holy Ghost' vs. 'Holy Spirit' is trivial. Dissension over how to receive Christ at Mass, not so much.

--hide--

eyebrow

So tell me, if it truly absurd to claim that anything pertaining to receiving the Eucharist is trivial, when one exits the pew and starts to walk towards the alter, should the first step be with the left foot, or the right foot? If a whole family is going to receive Communion, should they line up by age, or height, or alphabetically or what?

I agree that every Catholic should strive to worthily and reverently receive communion, but there are aspects of the operation that flatly do not matter. Christ became angry with the money changers in the temple, but He also was not fond of the scribes and pharisees for their tendency to "strain at gnats." One should keep some perspective.

12/09/2012 new

The discussion of jeans in church is missing a rather important part of Josephine's story; it is inexcusable for a priest to restrict access to the sacraments based on wardrobe.

Whether or not jeans or any other article of clothing constitutes respect or disrespect is entirely circumstantial. If somebody is deliberately "dressing down" to show contempt, then yes, that is a very, very bad thing. If some impoverished person is wearing a pair of jeans because that is the only pair of pants they own that doesn't have a hole in it, they would be showing respect, not disrespect.

12/09/2012 new

This talk about jeans is giving me a headache. Of course, I might just be dehydrated. Off course, we do realize that we are in the middle of a revolution, right? Having attended, studied, etc, the positions of most of the organizations that provide the TLM, including SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, and the indult mass organizations, there is a key acknowledgement of the priest's perspective on Josephine's predicament that may be lacking. It is because most of us may not know what's going outside our little box. I asked her what organization's Mass she attended for a reason. Let's leave aside the condemnation of the any of the organizations perspectives on our religious problem for the moment. But the priest might very well have looked at her appearance and figured out that she was new to their particular practice of the Faith. It is possible that the priest may have thought he should verify, because of this estimation having to do with her clothing, which may have been appropriate at a NO Mass but against the rules for reception at that chapel, that she had been to, what he held to be valid sacramental confession, before he put that the consequences of disrespect of that responsibility upon her or himself. Most of the traditional Mass chapels are small and personal. So they all talk to the priest. And as in the past the priest does not only have responsibility to defend the sacraments, but the authority to do so as well.
So the more serious question than about whether most people might be able to buy a perfectly servicable suit of clothes at Salvation Army with a little fore thought, is, have we researched all the sources available to understand the perspectives of the points of view in the traditional Catholic movement. This might provide more substance for Josephine's decision, which ever way she chooses. For instance, have we looked at the history of the rite of priestly ordination? I don't just mean the differences between the Traditional and Paul VII rites. And they are different. But the study should include Luther, Cranmer, the popes since then. There is so much scholarly study available. We're just scratching the surface here. The ramifications are enormous. One should learn enough to understand. Are wearing jeans more important that cracking this serious issue. That's why you talk to the priest. He wants to save souls or he shouldn't/wouldn't be there.
In addition, Mary through Lucy of Fatima, warned of several dangers, one of which was the change of fashion that she idicated woud be a severe danger to salvation of souls. Along with the rest of the changes, women in pants is new since the 60s. In terms of Catholic history, that's a wink of the eye, and I bet you figured out that I may be inferring that pants on women may be one of the things she was warning about. Is there any way in the world the unisex thing was not a precursor to acceptance of sodomy, blurring role lines--now you think I'm barking at the moon. People from outside of MT love to hear that, wolf introduction and all.
And alll the above ties into dating and especially into successful participation in the rite of sacramental marriage.

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