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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Dec 9th 2012 new

I forgot to say that all these TLM organizations publish in bulletins, post on the entry doors notices about requirements for reception. These are the priests that would refuse to give commuinon to "good" Catholics like John Kerry, or the rationalizers of abortion "rights".

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: Not entirely sure what you're holding to be a moot point. If you're saying the me...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Not entirely sure what you're holding to be a moot point. If you're saying the men graduating from the seminaries now are more conservative and traditional, I agree and am mostly fine with that.

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I'm stating that the Latin Mass will once again become the Ordinary Form.

There are simply not enough priests coming from the "Novus Ordo" parishes to maintain the Church structure that has been built up over the last two hundred years in this country. The ordinations to the priesthood are coming disproportionately from parishes where the priests offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form; the Latin Mass will become more and more commonplace until it's the only form of the Mass used.

Do I think everyone is going to rush in and embrace the Latin Mass? Not at all. I think it's critics will either die out or come to terms with it. Tepid Catholics will have children who become agnostics and who won't care either way. (Although they might become episcopalians; I don't know.)

(If this sounds unreasonable, let me point out that this thread itself would have been unreasonable just thirty years ago; the Latin Mass was considered a relic of the past.)

To repeat my earlier point, there is no question about the validity of the Mass in the Ordinary Form. Unfortunately however, the Church hierarchy was slow to respond to many of the abuses that have taken place in many parishes with regards to the Novus Ordo Mass and there is a generation and now, a second) of Catholics who no longer believe many of the tenets of the Faith in regards to the Mass (the Real Presence, for example).



Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: The discussion of jeans in church is missing a rather important part of Josephine's story; it ...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

The discussion of jeans in church is missing a rather important part of Josephine's story; it is inexcusable for a priest to restrict access to the sacraments based on wardrobe.

Whether or not jeans or any other article of clothing constitutes respect or disrespect is entirely circumstantial. If somebody is deliberately "dressing down" to show contempt, then yes, that is a very, very bad thing. If some impoverished person is wearing a pair of jeans because that is the only pair of pants they own that doesn't have a hole in it, they would be showing respect, not disrespect.

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Being treated shabbily by a Priest or laity is inexcusable.

My comments and questions were more directed, not so much at jeans, but at the general attitude. In general I agree with your comment about denying access to the Sacraments due to wardrobe. But only up to a point.

A person presenting themselves in church dressed as if they just came from a beach or pool party wearing flip flops, etc. is just out of place and inappropriate. They do not belong in church dressed like that.

The fact that everyone is dressed that way is no excuse. There is a minimum level of decorum that everyone should observe. Clean and neat in appearance should be the standard. And even that standard can reasonably be broken by the workman/person just getting off of or on their way to work.

Societal dress standards have changed to a more casual and relaxed style. But in too many cases, both what is considered appropriate for Church and in public in general have gone too far. But that is a whole other issue.

Dec 9th 2012 new

Just browsing the comments here...

Lots being said about the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I don't think anyone's made reference to Redemptionis Sacramentum (USCCB). Here it is:

old.usccb.org

I can't get the entire link to show up.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: So tell me, if it truly absurd to claim that anything pertaining to receiving the Eucharist is tri...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

So tell me, if it truly absurd to claim that anything pertaining to receiving the Eucharist is trivial, when one exits the pew and starts to walk towards the alter, should the first step be with the left foot, or the right foot? If a whole family is going to receive Communion, should they line up by age, or height, or alphabetically or what?

I agree that every Catholic should strive to worthily and reverently receive communion, but there are aspects of the operation that flatly do not matter. Christ became angry with the money changers in the temple, but He also was not fond of the scribes and pharisees for their tendency to "strain at gnats." One should keep some perspective.

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You're setting up a strawman argument here. The point is how one receives Jesus in the moment he/she is actually receiving Him. One shouldn't go skip down the aisle to receive Him, of course, but to insinuate that I would go to such lengths as to be truly concerned about how one should walk, or line up, etc. to receive Him is likewise pharisaical. So stop 'straining at gnats' already.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) Chris-427945 said: You're setting up a strawman argument here. The point is how one receives Jesus in th...
(Quote) Chris-427945 said:



You're setting up a strawman argument here. The point is how one receives Jesus in the moment he/she is actually receiving Him. One shouldn't go skip down the aisle to receive Him, of course, but to insinuate that I would go to such lengths as to be truly concerned about how one should walk, or line up, etc. to receive Him is likewise pharisaical. So stop 'straining at gnats' already.

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You made an overly broad statement and I called you on it. Since you did in fact make the statement, it is impossible to (correctly) claim that I'm making a strawman argument since that involves claiming you said something you did not. This is an example of reductio ad absurdum, which is valid, not a strawman which is not.

The reason I called you on that statement is that time and time again there have been people who have used the legitimately true point that we should take Communion seriously because of the Real Presence to then bootstrap themselves into a claim that their personal preference for ______ is mandatory because anybody who does anything different is some kind of disrespectful scum who is desecrating the sacrament. I'm not saying that you've been doing that, just that I'm going to attack that springboard before anybody even tries to make the jump.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: I'm stating that the Latin Mass will once again become the Ordinary Form.
(Quote) William-607613 said:




I'm stating that the Latin Mass will once again become the Ordinary Form.

There are simply not enough priests coming from the "Novus Ordo" parishes to maintain the Church structure that has been built up over the last two hundred years in this country. The ordinations to the priesthood are coming disproportionately from parishes where the priests offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form; the Latin Mass will become more and more commonplace until it's the only form of the Mass used.

Do I think everyone is going to rush in and embrace the Latin Mass? Not at all. I think it's critics will either die out or come to terms with it. Tepid Catholics will have children who become agnostics and who won't care either way. (Although they might become episcopalians; I don't know.)

(If this sounds unreasonable, let me point out that this thread itself would have been unreasonable just thirty years ago; the Latin Mass was considered a relic of the past.)

To repeat my earlier point, there is no question about the validity of the Mass in the Ordinary Form. Unfortunately however, the Church hierarchy was slow to respond to many of the abuses that have taken place in many parishes with regards to the Novus Ordo Mass and there is a generation and now, a second) of Catholics who no longer believe many of the tenets of the Faith in regards to the Mass (the Real Presence, for example).



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An interesting hypothesis.

I think there will almost certainly be movement in that direction, even if I'm not sure that we'll ever actually get all the way to where you're describing..

Part of the problem, and you have already indirectly touched on this, is that the priesthood is only part of the problem. The Tridentine Mass is really only viable (in terms of support from the laity) if the congregation believes in the Real Presence. We are at an all-time high for Catholics who do not hold that belief. The Church has been doing an absolutely horrible job in terms of imparting its teachings in their entirety. I think that will eventually be corrected.

There are also people who, even though they are knowledgeable and devout Catholics, just did/do not care for that form of the Mass. Differently people are attracted to different things, and even though I think the EF is going to make a major comeback, I don't know that I agree that what is currently the OF is going to completely die out.

Time will tell.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Being treated shabbily by a Priest or laity is inexcusable. My comments and questi...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Being treated shabbily by a Priest or laity is inexcusable.

My comments and questions were more directed, not so much at jeans, but at the general attitude. In general I agree with your comment about denying access to the Sacraments due to wardrobe. But only up to a point.

A person presenting themselves in church dressed as if they just came from a beach or pool party wearing flip flops, etc. is just out of place and inappropriate. They do not belong in church dressed like that.

The fact that everyone is dressed that way is no excuse. There is a minimum level of decorum that everyone should observe. Clean and neat in appearance should be the standard. And even that standard can reasonably be broken by the workman/person just getting off of or on their way to work.

Societal dress standards have changed to a more casual and relaxed style. But in too many cases, both what is considered appropriate for Church and in public in general have gone too far. But that is a whole other issue.

--hide--

I agree that there is unfortunately no shortage of people who are dressed inapproriately for Church. There are appropriate ways of dealing with that, and inapproriate ways.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: I forgot to say that all these TLM organizations publish in bulletins, post on the entry doors ...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

I forgot to say that all these TLM organizations publish in bulletins, post on the entry doors notices about requirements for reception. These are the priests that would refuse to give commuinon to "good" Catholics like John Kerry, or the rationalizers of abortion "rights".

--hide--

It is one thing to refuse to give Communion to somebody who openly and flagrantly despises Church teachings and quite another to refuse to give it to somebody just because the priest doesn't like how they look.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) Rose-921185 said: For dating /courting couples who are getting serious, eventually a decision will need to be made a...
(Quote) Rose-921185 said:

For dating /courting couples who are getting serious, eventually a decision will need to be made as to where the family will attend. That will require much prayer for good discernment by both parties.

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I thank everyone for talking about this since I have learned something. I personally believe, along with prayer and discernment, that if I did get married, it would be my husband's ultimate decision, and I would follow his lead. I grew up in the Roman rite, but I am open to being more traditional if looking at spirituality from another perspective is helpful in growing in my relationship with Jesus.

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