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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: If you are explaining why some people come to the conclusion that Jesus is "more pre...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

If you are explaining why some people come to the conclusion that Jesus is "more present in the Latin," then I agree that those are contributing factors. I hope you're not claming they are right.

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You are correct that I was talking about the impression people have about the OF. As I hope everyone knows, the sacraments operate by the fact of their operation, and are not dependent on the personal holiness of the priest, and while any of the abuses mentioned are illicit, the mass is only invalid if the words of consecration are intentionally botched.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: I would like to know more also. I am unfamiliar with these terms EF and OF. Forgive my ignor...
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

I would like to know more also. I am unfamiliar with these terms EF and OF. Forgive my ignorance. All I know is that Latin Mass people I know INSIST that the Latin mass is the only "correct" mass and that the regular mass is all wrong.

Last summer I stopped by a church I had never been to before for mass. I think it turned out to be Novus Ordo but I am still not sure. The mass was in English and the priest on the altar was separated from the people. I was the only woman wearing jeans and not wearing a veil. Boy did I feel like out of place. To make matters worse, the priest made an announcement at the beginning of mass. Something to the effect that if anyone was not a traditional mass attendee, that they should not recieve communion (something like that- i was a little stunned by the announcement and don't remember exactly what he said). I felt that announcement was specifically for me and that everyone was focused at me. I sat through the mass because I was too embarrassed to get up and leave.

After the mass, I should have known, "the women" were waiting for me outside. They of course were very nice to me, but proceeded to tell me that everything about the regular mass was wrong and we were not attending the true mass- the correct mass. I kind of felt ganged up on and was just stuck there without an escape. I felt like I was in a different world. I listened to them, politely thanked them and said I would think about what they said and got out of that parking lot quickly. I had no idea that Catholics could be the same and yet so different.

I recently was communicating with Latin Mass man here on CM. He said from the beginning that he would respect my preferences (in case things worked out for us), but I don't think he meant it. It felt every communication centered around him convincing me that the Latin mass was the only valid mass. I thought this would be a problem for us because I felt he wasn't going to compromise even though he said he would, and that perhaps he wasn't going to let up on the pressure until I gave in. Things didn't work out for other reasons, but even in a perfect situation, there would have been problems over this.

Well, that's my limited experience with the traditional mass participants.
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Oh my goodness. I love the Latin Mass and conservative Novus Ordo Masses as well. Those are my preferences. Jesus becomes present when the priest does the Consecration. I have gone to Latin Mass off and on for years and all I can say is, REALLY! I am so sorry that happened to you. Please don't think all Latin Mass groups are that way; please don't think that and I see the Devil once again, trying to divide and conquer.

Dec 9th 2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: I'm stating that the Latin Mass will once again become the Ordinary Form.
(Quote) William-607613 said:




I'm stating that the Latin Mass will once again become the Ordinary Form.

There are simply not enough priests coming from the "Novus Ordo" parishes to maintain the Church structure that has been built up over the last two hundred years in this country. The ordinations to the priesthood are coming disproportionately from parishes where the priests offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form; the Latin Mass will become more and more commonplace until it's the only form of the Mass used.

Do I think everyone is going to rush in and embrace the Latin Mass? Not at all. I think it's critics will either die out or come to terms with it. Tepid Catholics will have children who become agnostics and who won't care either way. (Although they might become episcopalians; I don't know.)

(If this sounds unreasonable, let me point out that this thread itself would have been unreasonable just thirty years ago; the Latin Mass was considered a relic of the past.)

To repeat my earlier point, there is no question about the validity of the Mass in the Ordinary Form. Unfortunately however, the Church hierarchy was slow to respond to many of the abuses that have taken place in many parishes with regards to the Novus Ordo Mass and there is a generation and now, a second) of Catholics who no longer believe many of the tenets of the Faith in regards to the Mass (the Real Presence, for example).



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In some ways you are right. More likely what we will see is a marriage of the two. The best of the two forms will be melded together while unnecessary things in both will be discarded.

For example, the cycle of readings will be retained. For a long time Catholics have been and are not known for bible reading, which is a shame. the NO 3 year and 2 year cycle of readings goes a long way to correcting that. Over those two cycles, Catholics at least hear a major portion of the bible. On the other hand, the multiplicity of Eucharistic prayers will be discarded. There will be a single one for most Masses with special ones only for special feasts. As a result someone trying to follow the priest with a Missal won't have to turn pages like mad to try to find the one the priest has chosen to use.

In other words, when the Novus Ordo was developed, the developers forgot to keep the KISS principle in mind.

We will also see the elimination of the parading of the Book of Readings, while the tabernacle has been relegated to a hidden room instead of where it belongs front and center. I believe we will also see the elimination of the over and unnecessary use of Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. They will only be used at mass if both Species are offered to the Congregation. Otherwise, only the priest and or deacon will distribute communion.

We will also see a return of Gregorian Chant. Despite the mistaken belief that Chant does not work in English, Anglicans have been using it in English for 500 years. With the return of chant the Caterwauling we are now subjected to will disappear.

Dec 10th 2012 new

John, you and I know that we can only judge, i.e. discern by the outer form, rather than presume to know the inner state, intention, etc. So we have clothes...... The following may demonstrate how they fit it in. We are all guessing about the presumed state, intention, etc of the priest in question. Have we asked him about his part in this, do we even know the whole story? Or is there something else going on?......How do we so easily react with such pique. I raised this earlier, but I'll spell it out. If Josephine went to a Mass celebrated by SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, and some so-called TLM independents (there is another whole world of TLM Masses outside of the dioscese), and they have a policy to take special responsibility for the distribution of sacraments and the care of the souls of recipients, they may have , what to you may seem a peculiar way of showing it, but a concern about distribution to strangers. But all we are talking about is Josephine's belief she was snubbed. What is the priest's side of the story? We may not be familiar with, know of or agree with positions of these Mass organizations on Vatican II or the changes in all the sacraments. Those changes in the NO Church in the sacraments may predicate, for them, checking a stranger's participation in the traditional rite of Confession and sacramental absolution before receipt of communion in some of these situations. That's the thing to think about. I am not accusing or judging, but we should remember the parable in which the wedding attendee was cast out because they lacked the wedding garment. Obviously that wasn't about clothing but preperation of the soul for meeting God. What else is that about, but the effect of the cleansing of the soul by confession and absolution in order to meet God, in this case in communion. Do we understand how the age-old Catholic sacraments are different from those of Paul VII Novus ordo Church? The clothing in Masses of the organizations named above, where there is an organization- wide, publicly posted policy that spells out the definition of acceptible dress, among other things, may become a red flag that the priest may be meeting a stranger that may be in need of special instruction before being admitted to the sacraments. He probably has a flock to look after, Josephine had herself to manage. I know from personal experience that it takes patience, personal responsibility, some humility,, and understanding to make useful connections in such a situation. To be put off over the issue of jeans is just unfortunate. Simply put, what do you think is the priest's side of the story? I guess we'll never know.

Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: Are you all finished bashing me for wearing jeans yet? Paul, to answer your question...
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

Are you all finished bashing me for wearing jeans yet?

Paul, to answer your question, if I were invited to the white house or had to go to a meeting with my boss, I would wear the type of clothes that everyone else was wearing. If people went to the white house wearing jeans I would. If not I wouldn't. At church, I wear what other people wear. Some people dress up and some people wear clothes that are even less casual than jeans. I don't dress worse than anyone else.

The bottom line is it's between me and God what I wear. God knows what's in my heart and at least I am in church. I'm sure of all things I have done in my life, I am not going to the cooker for wearing jeans.

Why don't you all go talk to the non Christians, pagans and devil worshipers instead of harping on practicing Catholics for what we choose to wear to Church.

I will now allow you to have the last word because I will not be responding further. This was the first time I checked this room, and responded to a thead in this room, because I wanted to learn more about the Latin rite, and I have learned enough. Now I remember why I haven't been here before.

God Bless all your non judgemental hearts and have a good Sunday.
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I have been away from this thread for awhile otherwise I would have responded sooner. I am sorry Josephine for your experience, but the comments about church dress by myself and the others were not "bashing" you. There were just to encourage further thought on the subject. I myself admitted to wearing jeans some times and I have learned why this is not the better thing to do. You may not even read these comments but I do feel I need to answer for others who will. I can understand that you were hurt by your experience, but your reaction seemed a bit defensive, and there were good things to learn from the others who commented about dress in church. I too have been hurt many times in my life but I try to use the experiences to see what I could learn from the situation and at times this has made me wiser and better able to understand another's prespective. I will also add that your experience is not typical for the TLM - I don't know what liturgy you attended, whether by the FSSP, SSPX, or other - but please don't use that as a judgement against the TLM and its attendees as a whole. The person you will be most limiting by this is yourself.

There is a need to address church dress as people have taken too many liberties. By the way, the Vatican has a dress code posted as do all the churches in Rome, and those who are not dressed appropriately are not admitted within. It's not so much concerned with jeans (though the picture has a female form in a dress or skirt), but with inappropriately exposed areas of the body.

Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Loretta-678584 said: (Quote) John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and ...
(Quote) Loretta-678584 said:

Quote:
John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and those of a less traditional more modern vein? I'm talking about worship style here and less about faith matters.

I'vre been to both Latin rite masses and the "new mass" I like both.

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I think if someone likes both, it might be able to work!!

Dec 10th 2012 new

I know for a fact it is workable if both parties are loving and really care for each other. Don't try to change what they are familiar with in terms of worship. Both need to be willing to compromise. You will always need to be very cooperative or it will not work. People get tired and give up.

Dec 10th 2012 new

I have been a trad for a long time, and it is not coming to me - What does OF and EF stand for?

Dec 10th 2012 new
(Quote) Greg-720128 said: I have been a trad for a long time, and it is not coming to me - What does OF and EF stand for?
(Quote) Greg-720128 said:

I have been a trad for a long time, and it is not coming to me - What does OF and EF stand for?

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Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo) and Extraordinary Form (TLM)
Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Helen-450889 said: (Quote) Greg-720128 said: I have been a trad for a long time, and it is not comin...
(Quote) Helen-450889 said:
Quote:
Greg-720128 said:

I have been a trad for a long time, and it is not coming to me - What does OF and EF stand for?




Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo) and Extraordinary Form (TLM)
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These terms were first used by the Holy Father in Summorum Pontificum in 2007 to emphasize that the two forms of the liturgy are variations of the same rite, not two distinct and separate rites.

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