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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said: (Quote) John-336509 said: If you are explaining why some people ...
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:

Quote:
John-336509 said:

If you are explaining why some people come to the conclusion that Jesus is "more present in the Latin," then I agree that those are contributing factors. I hope you're not claming they are right.


You are correct that I was talking about the impression people have about the OF. As I hope everyone knows, the sacraments operate by the fact of their operation, and are not dependent on the personal holiness of the priest, and while any of the abuses mentioned are illicit, the mass is only invalid if the words of consecration are intentionally botched.

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Interesting. I have noted modernist priests during high school and during those recent experimental phases of Church history in the past, changing the words to the mass. But I am not so learned as to the way it is supposed to be said to know if any of those times it went so far as to become invalid. The Church officials do have to draw a line over which priests should not cross, though and it makes sense to do so.

I am currently reading a book by Malachi Martin where he discusses the cases of several persons who went through exorcisms. The book lists a priest (not by name,) who felt himself becoming harrassed by spirits during the mass and he felt compelled to change the words of the mass to the point of changing the whole form. Eventually he was in a position where he went through an exorcism. (I have not read through what happens yet.) All of this to say simply that some persons who take lightly what is prayed and said in the mass, should not do so. Also just to say that certain habits we may take up could be dangerous. But I am by no means trying to hijack this thread into a whole new driection in any sense.

Dec 10th 2012 new

I have nothing against attending the traditional Latin Mass, nor do I harbor ill will toward anyone who does. Where I take offense is when those who attend feel the need to tell me the "error" of my ways by not doing as they do.


I have yet to have someone show me where Jesus ever said "Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened - but only in Latin and only if you meet a strict dress code. Thank God I didn't attend Catholic school.


Let's take it back to the Last Supper. Did any of this matter or even take place? No; it was Jesus and the twelve apostles in the Upper Room. That's it.

Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Carl-98335 said: I have nothing against attending the traditional Latin Mass, nor do I harbor ill will toward anyone...
(Quote) Carl-98335 said:

I have nothing against attending the traditional Latin Mass, nor do I harbor ill will toward anyone who does. Where I take offense is when those who attend feel the need to tell me the "error" of my ways by not doing as they do.


I have yet to have someone show me where Jesus ever said "Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened - but only in Latin and only if you meet a strict dress code. Thank God I didn't attend Catholic school.


Let's take it back to the Last Supper. Did any of this matter or even take place? No; it was Jesus and the twelve apostles in the Upper Room. That's it.

--hide--


There is a big difference between telling someone they are in error and telling them you don't like what they are doing b/c it's not as you would do. We all are called to lovingly correct our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in error, otherwise their sin may also become ours by ommission. There are many things in the church which are a matter of opinion or preference and there are things that are not - the things handed down to us in Catholic tradition by Jesus and His early Apostles and Disciples. You don't have to attend the TLM but you do need to follow traditional teachings. The early church fathers didn't necessarily attend the Tridentine Mass (the TLM, as it wasn't in that form until about the 1500s), but this Mass tends to preserve most of the early traditions. There some problems with some New Mass liturgies that need to be addressed but the New Mass (NO/OF) is still valid - and no one has denied that.

"This testimony is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, who turn themselves away from the truth." (Titus 1:13-14, DR).

There seems to be a bit of an anti-Traditional sentiment on this thread. I do understand that sometimes some people are not charitable in their corrections of others (a friend of mine likes to call this "Tradititude") but that doesn't mean all corrections should be discarded. An "anything goes" attitude is not what Jesus wants of us either.

Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Carl-98335 said: I have nothing against attending the traditional Latin Mass, nor do I harbor ill will toward anyone...
(Quote) Carl-98335 said:

I have nothing against attending the traditional Latin Mass, nor do I harbor ill will toward anyone who does. Where I take offense is when those who attend feel the need to tell me the "error" of my ways by not doing as they do.


I have yet to have someone show me where Jesus ever said "Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened - but only in Latin and only if you meet a strict dress code. Thank God I didn't attend Catholic school.


Let's take it back to the Last Supper. Did any of this matter or even take place? No; it was Jesus and the twelve apostles in the Upper Room. That's it.

--hide--


I know. I dated a man who was going to these types of masses and his were not under the Pope. I tried to talk to him and it was to no avail. I am talking to him again as friends. If this comes up again it will be a disappointment. Anyone who joins a fringe splinter group should expect some kind of backlash due to doing that. Who wants to jump off a cliff to go to ones that are not inline with the Magesterium? I don't know if this detail was discussed here or not..

Dec 10th 2012 new

(Quote) Rose-921185 said: There is a big difference between telling someone they are in error and telling them ...
(Quote) Rose-921185 said:


There is a big difference between telling someone they are in error and telling them you don't like what they are doing b/c it's not as you would do. We all are called to lovingly correct our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in error, otherwise their sin may also become ours by ommission. There are many things in the church which are a matter of opinion or preference and there are things that are not - the things handed down to us in Catholic tradition by Jesus and His early Apostles and Disciples. You don't have to attend the TLM but you do need to follow traditional teachings. The early church fathers didn't necessarily attend the Tridentine Mass (the TLM, as it wasn't in that form until about the 1500s), but this Mass tends to preserve most of the early traditions. There some problems with some New Mass liturgies that need to be addressed but the New Mass (NO/OF) is still valid - and no one has denied that.

"This testimony is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, who turn themselves away from the truth." (Titus 1:13-14, DR).

There seems to be a bit of an anti-Traditional sentiment on this thread. I do understand that sometimes some people are not charitable in their corrections of others (a friend of mine likes to call this "Tradititude") but that doesn't mean all corrections should be discarded. An "anything goes" attitude is not what Jesus wants of us either.

--hide--


I think there are many who have been on CM and who are on CM who are very open to traditional Catholicism. Maybe one or two negative posters are making it seem like there are more. Believe me it is not the way it seems. I think many Trads are here and would love to share their faith. Be patient about this and you will see!

Dec 11th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: In some ways you are right. More likely what we will see is a marriage of the two. The best of the...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

In some ways you are right. More likely what we will see is a marriage of the two. The best of the two forms will be melded together while unnecessary things in both will be discarded.

For example, the cycle of readings will be retained. For a long time Catholics have been and are not known for bible reading, which is a shame. the NO 3 year and 2 year cycle of readings goes a long way to correcting that. Over those two cycles, Catholics at least hear a major portion of the bible. On the other hand, the multiplicity of Eucharistic prayers will be discarded. There will be a single one for most Masses with special ones only for special feasts. As a result someone trying to follow the priest with a Missal won't have to turn pages like mad to try to find the one the priest has chosen to use.

In other words, when the Novus Ordo was developed, the developers forgot to keep the KISS principle in mind.

We will also see the elimination of the parading of the Book of Readings, while the tabernacle has been relegated to a hidden room instead of where it belongs front and center. I believe we will also see the elimination of the over and unnecessary use of Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. They will only be used at mass if both Species are offered to the Congregation. Otherwise, only the priest and or deacon will distribute communion.

We will also see a return of Gregorian Chant. Despite the mistaken belief that Chant does not work in English, Anglicans have been using it in English for 500 years. With the return of chant the Caterwauling we are now subjected to will disappear.

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Paul, any chance you can tell me when all these wonderful changes will take place? A decade? Two decades? Will I see them in my lifetime? Praying

Dec 11th 2012 new

(Quote) Lisa-54615 said: Paul, any chance you can tell me when all these wonderful changes will take place? A decad...
(Quote) Lisa-54615 said:

Paul, any chance you can tell me when all these wonderful changes will take place? A decade? Two decades? Will I see them in my lifetime?

--hide--

Benedict XVI is already pushing things in that direction. But the process will be evolutionary. Someone as young as you may well see the complete change. Someone my age? Not likely.

Meanwhile, I concentrate on the text and ignore all the silliness. I can't carry a tune, so the horrible music is a mere distraction. Even the feeble attempts at chant amuse me, especially when the frustrated opera singers try their hand at it.

The beauty of chant is that anyone, even someone like me who can'tcarry a tune, can do it.

Several US Bishops have banned the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion in their Sees. As an altar boy, years and years ago, I observed many times the single priest saying Mass distributing Communion to a couple of hundred people by himself using less time and less disruption than takes place now with fewer people and "Eucharistic Ministers" all over the place.

Dec 11th 2012 new

(Quote) Rose-921185 said: There seems to be a bit of an anti-Traditional sentiment on this thread. I do understand ...
(Quote) Rose-921185 said:

There seems to be a bit of an anti-Traditional sentiment on this thread. I do understand that sometimes some people are not charitable in their corrections of others (a friend of mine likes to call this "Tradititude") but that doesn't mean all corrections should be discarded. An "anything goes" attitude is not what Jesus wants of us either.

--hide--

I don't think there is a lot of anti-Traditional sentiment here- I've seen that elsewhere and it's radically different looking than what we're seeing here and now.

There is a great bit of hostility towards the radical traditionalists, the ones who think their way is the only way, the NO isn't valid, God only hears prayers if they are in Latin, etc.

Dec 11th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: John, you and I know that we can only judge, i.e. discern by the outer form, rather than presum...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

John, you and I know that we can only judge, i.e. discern by the outer form, rather than presume to know the inner state, intention, etc. So we have clothes...... The following may demonstrate how they fit it in. We are all guessing about the presumed state, intention, etc of the priest in question. Have we asked him about his part in this, do we even know the whole story? Or is there something else going on?......How do we so easily react with such pique. I raised this earlier, but I'll spell it out. If Josephine went to a Mass celebrated by SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, and some so-called TLM independents (there is another whole world of TLM Masses outside of the dioscese), and they have a policy to take special responsibility for the distribution of sacraments and the care of the souls of recipients, they may have , what to you may seem a peculiar way of showing it, but a concern about distribution to strangers. But all we are talking about is Josephine's belief she was snubbed. What is the priest's side of the story? We may not be familiar with, know of or agree with positions of these Mass organizations on Vatican II or the changes in all the sacraments. Those changes in the NO Church in the sacraments may predicate, for them, checking a stranger's participation in the traditional rite of Confession and sacramental absolution before receipt of communion in some of these situations. That's the thing to think about. I am not accusing or judging, but we should remember the parable in which the wedding attendee was cast out because they lacked the wedding garment. Obviously that wasn't about clothing but preperation of the soul for meeting God. What else is that about, but the effect of the cleansing of the soul by confession and absolution in order to meet God, in this case in communion. Do we understand how the age-old Catholic sacraments are different from those of Paul VII Novus ordo Church? The clothing in Masses of the organizations named above, where there is an organization- wide, publicly posted policy that spells out the definition of acceptible dress, among other things, may become a red flag that the priest may be meeting a stranger that may be in need of special instruction before being admitted to the sacraments. He probably has a flock to look after, Josephine had herself to manage. I know from personal experience that it takes patience, personal responsibility, some humility,, and understanding to make useful connections in such a situation. To be put off over the issue of jeans is just unfortunate. Simply put, what do you think is the priest's side of the story? I guess we'll never know.

--hide--

Obviously, it must be conceded that we have only heard one side of the story.

There are certainly valid reasons why a priest should be concerned with whether or not somebody should receive Communion. A reminder from the pulpit that one should be a Catholic in a state of grace would be fine. Asking the congregation to examine their conscience to see if they should go to confession before the next time they receive communion would also be fine. Telling people they shouldn't go to communion if they aren't a regular is not.

The existence of an organization wide dress code is all fine and dandy, and might even be enforceable...in an oratory. I'm not so sure about a church. I vaguely recall that Cannon law is not fond of denying the faithful access to a church, but I honestly don't remember all the details. (We'll forgo a discussion on whether or not I think the organizations you listed are in fact Catholic and for the moment say they are for the sake of argument.)

Dec 14th 2012 new
(Quote) Marian-83994 said: Interesting. I have noted modernist priests during high school and during those recent experimental pha...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:



Interesting. I have noted modernist priests during high school and during those recent experimental phases of Church history in the past, changing the words to the mass. But I am not so learned as to the way it is supposed to be said to know if any of those times it went so far as to become invalid. The Church officials do have to draw a line over which priests should not cross, though and it makes sense to do so.

I am currently reading a book by Malachi Martin where he discusses the cases of several persons who went through exorcisms. The book lists a priest (not by name,) who felt himself becoming harrassed by spirits during the mass and he felt compelled to change the words of the mass to the point of changing the whole form. Eventually he was in a position where he went through an exorcism. (I have not read through what happens yet.) All of this to say simply that some persons who take lightly what is prayed and said in the mass, should not do so. Also just to say that certain habits we may take up could be dangerous. But I am by no means trying to hijack this thread into a whole new driection in any sense.

--hide--


Marian,

The book sounds interesting, what is the name of it?
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