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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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12/15/2012 new

Worrying about others isn't my issue. I've come to relish minding my own business, and church is supposed to be a sanctuary for me. Instead, I now view entering a church as opening myself up to the criticisms and judgments of others, and it really discourages me to even want to go (but I never skip), much less want to participate further in a community. In other words, the very things of the world I go to Church to temporarily escape seem to have followed me and invaded my serenity.

A coworker who is also a counselor advised me to step away from Mass attendance completely for six months at least, just to step back and gain some perspective. I'm actually wondering if that's a good idea.

My good friend Claire said it best: "The number one reason Catholics leave the Church is fellow Catholics."

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) Carl-98335 said: Worrying about others isn't my issue. I've come to relish minding my own business, and chur...
(Quote) Carl-98335 said:

Worrying about others isn't my issue. I've come to relish minding my own business, and church is supposed to be a sanctuary for me. Instead, I now view entering a church as opening myself up to the criticisms and judgments of others, and it really discourages me to even want to go (but I never skip), much less want to participate further in a community. In other words, the very things of the world I go to Church to temporarily escape seem to have followed me and invaded my serenity.

A coworker who is also a counselor advised me to step away from Mass attendance completely for six months at least, just to step back and gain some perspective. I'm actually wondering if that's a good idea.

My good friend Claire said it best: "The number one reason Catholics leave the Church is fellow Catholics."

--hide--

The church can and should be a place of serenity. I can't imagine the things you go thorough, as I believe you are a soldier. I have been through some very tough things in life though too. I did step away from the church for a long period in my life, but in my experience, that didn't do me any good, and likely did me more harm. I am far from perfect, but I have become much more serious about my faith in recent years as I realized (the hard way) that Catholic teachings are the truth. I won't go into specifics about my experiences, but there were was a lot of pain, a lot of growth and much spiritual progress (hopefully it will last).

I later learned that as Catholics we are required to hear mass at least weekly, otherwise it is a mortal sin. There are circumstances which can legitimately prevent that - such as illness, deployment to a different area, extended travel in areas where there is no Mass - and these would not mean one is in mortal sin. But it is something we need to honestly discern in our lives. I would caution you against the advice you received, though probably meant well, as it goes against Catholic teaching. That is not meant as a criticism, but in a concerned and loving way (fraternal love, I don't know you well enough to mean anything other). Do you have a good Catholic spiritual director that can help you through this?

The Catholic church is a perfect institution, set up by Christ, but run and filled with imperfect people. I have learned (as I deal with a lot of people that sometimes make me feel like skipping it all together) that we need to bear with the faults of others patiently. It's not fun but can help us grow spiritually in ways we would not expect, helping us to develop virtues. Our primary reason for going to Mass should be to honor and build our relationship with Jesus Christ. The other people are secondary, though unity in the Catholic community is highly encouraged by the celebration of the Mass. It's hard to be a devout Catholic and do it on your own as this isn't a solitary religion, but one based on service and love of one another.

When I first started attending the TLM, I was often corrected by many people, some strangers, and I found this a little difficult. It was much easier to go to the NO/OF as it didn't occur as much. I'm pretty good at taking criticism though, and I'm quite analytical, so I like figuring out WHY the other person said what they did. In that exploring and learning, I have discovered that though sometmes people seem critical, they may have something valid and truthful to say. A good message isn't always delivered by a good messenger.

I hope you stay with the faith and find supportive people who help you do that. I will keep you in my prayers, and please keep me in yours too. The faith life is not a easy way but it is the truth. Jesus suffered on this earth to show us that our sufferings would bring us closer to him and prepare us for the life He has in store for us - and that life is not only the life here on earth but the everlasting life in Heaven.

12/15/2012 new

Carl. I hope I don't seem to presume, but I believe Catholics Leave the Church because they don't know The Faith. Jesus advised that we must "eat My Body and drink My Blood" to have life, and that we must bear our own cross. My RCIA class was so full of heterodox opinion, protestant instruction, and bad example, that I was driven to find the substance of this Church I had so much hope in or give up. I had a Mason, and extraordinary minister in our NO mass, tell me I needn't worry about my questions and need for learning, just do the service part and don't worry. If you want peace that Christ offers, remember He came with a sword. You must fight the good fight. Learn the Faith.

By the way Catholics throughout the ages have given their lives to be faithful to the Mass of All Time: they were persecuted and killed after the English Reformation, they were even barred from Catholic practise in early America, they were butchered in the French Revolution, they were even hunted down, with the aid of the US, in the Cristeros uprising in Mexico. The saints died for it throughout the centuries. And some even said the Earth would sooner cease to exist for the lack of the Mass, than the lack Sun's warmth. Does this look like the time to back out. The US is caving the the abominable. Look at Dec. 14, Lifesitenews.com, many Republican's we think of as leaders of the party are openly distancing themselves from Church positions. Catholics are, at least in terms of polls, bahaving just like the larger public. Learn, and pray your way to the other side of this. He did also say "I am the way, the truth and the life". Pray unceasingly.

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and those of a less traditional more modern vein? I'...
(Quote) John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and those of a less traditional more modern vein? I'm talking about worship style here and less about faith matters.

--hide--
John wants to know if a relationship can work if the two parties are traditional and modern. Traditionalists tend toward intellectual, highly ritualistic liturgy while "modern" tend toward a feeling-emotional liturgy. Personally, I put myself in the former category; but I feel that the Church reflects the dual nature of its founder, and thus, it is a reflection of both the human and divine natures of Christ. This bipolarity frustrates a guy like me, but I suppose our Church is really a "big tent," as one college professor wrote me recently.

I disappeared from the faith, regretably, around the turn of the century; and when I returned I noticed chapels housed the Blessed Sacrament and we were standing durning the Agnus Dei all the way up to Communion. Since life had so thoroughly kicked my fanny, when I came back to the Church after months of sustained meditation on the Gospel's, I wanted my liturgy to be extraordinarily Holy--I just had to be on my knees before, during, and after Communion. Some told me that in Old Testament times, when you wanted to show respect for someone you did it standing up. But, I disagreed because if I came face to face with our Lord, with God the Father, I would drop to my knees in a second. Are we not face to face with our Lord during Mass? Is mass not "Holy?" Is Mass not a prayer?

To answer your prompt, John, I don't think Jesus cares about external signs as much as what is in our hearts. My preference for wearing button-down collared shirts, slacks, and dress shoes, along with my preference for Holy Mass, Communion on the tongue, Latin hymns, etc., does not work for everybody. I do like the fact that our current Pope is trying to bring back the things that will return the focus on God during Mass, which is where it should be. As long as the differences are about worship styles and not about matters of faith, two people can be compatible, if not wonderfully complementary.

I further hope that our Pontiff will bring back the Hail Mary and the Prayer to St. Michael at the end of the Mass.

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) Tom-919560 said: John wants to know if a relationship can work if the two parties are traditional and modern. Tradit...
(Quote) Tom-919560 said:

John wants to know if a relationship can work if the two parties are traditional and modern. Traditionalists tend toward intellectual, highly ritualistic liturgy while "modern" tend toward a feeling-emotional liturgy. Personally, I put myself in the former category; but I feel that the Church reflects the dual nature of its founder, and thus, it is a reflection of both the human and divine natures of Christ. This bipolarity frustrates a guy like me, but I suppose our Church is really a "big tent," as one college professor wrote me recently.

I disappeared from the faith, regretably, around the turn of the century; and when I returned I noticed chapels housed the Blessed Sacrament and we were standing durning the Agnus Dei all the way up to Communion. Since life had so thoroughly kicked my fanny, when I came back to the Church after months of sustained meditation on the Gospel's, I wanted my liturgy to be extraordinarily Holy--I just had to be on my knees before, during, and after Communion. Some told me that in Old Testament times, when you wanted to show respect for someone you did it standing up. But, I disagreed because if I came face to face with our Lord, with God the Father, I would drop to my knees in a second. Are we not face to face with our Lord during Mass? Is mass not "Holy?" Is Mass not a prayer?

To answer your prompt, John, I don't think Jesus cares about external signs as much as what is in our hearts. My preference for wearing button-down collared shirts, slacks, and dress shoes, along with my preference for Holy Mass, Communion on the tongue, Latin hymns, etc., does not work for everybody. I do like the fact that our current Pope is trying to bring back the things that will return the focus on God during Mass, which is where it should be. As long as the differences are about worship styles and not about matters of faith, two people can be compatible, if not wonderfully complementary.

I further hope that our Pontiff will bring back the Hail Mary and the Prayer to St. Michael at the end of the Mass.

--hide--

Tom,

The Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer at the end of Mass were never an actual part of the Mass. Your Pastor can bring those back any time he wants. No action is required from the Pope.

It was a practise in many areas. I believe some Bishops mandated it for their Sees. But I can honestly say that those prayers at the end of Mass were never a practise in any Church I ever attended either as a child or an adult.

The Mass official ends when the Priest dismisses the congregation and the congregation responds, "Thanks be to God." Anything after that is merely a pious practice that may have merit in itself but no real significance vis a vis the Mass.

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Tom, The Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer at the end of Mass were never an actual ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Tom,

The Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer at the end of Mass were never an actual part of the Mass. Your Pastor can bring those back any time he wants. No action is required from the Pope.

It was a practise in many areas. I believe some Bishops mandated it for their Sees. But I can honestly say that those prayers at the end of Mass were never a practise in any Church I ever attended either as a child or an adult.

The Mass official ends when the Priest dismisses the congregation and the congregation responds, "Thanks be to God." Anything after that is merely a pious practice that may have merit in itself but no real significance vis a vis the Mass.

--hide--

I might also point out that several of the Older Orders of Priests; i.e. for example, the Dominicans, the Servites, etc.; used to have their own rite of Mass. Most of those have been abandoned. But some retain some remnant of their rite. For example, a Servite priest always begins the Mass with the first part of the Hail Mary. And that is still an official part of the Mass in a Servite Church.

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Tom, The Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer at the end of Mass were never an actual ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Tom,

The Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer at the end of Mass were never an actual part of the Mass. Your Pastor can bring those back any time he wants. No action is required from the Pope.

It was a practise in many areas. I believe some Bishops mandated it for their Sees. But I can honestly say that those prayers at the end of Mass were never a practise in any Church I ever attended either as a child or an adult.

The Mass official ends when the Priest dismisses the congregation and the congregation responds, "Thanks be to God." Anything after that is merely a pious practice that may have merit in itself but no real significance vis a vis the Mass.

--hide--
Thanks, Paul. I can say the prayers by myself. I think I assumed it was done before '65 because sometimes I attend a very traditional little parish that recites the prayers after both its English and Latin Masses. I was too young in '65 to remember, so I based my understanding on recent attendance at traditional Mass celebrations.

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I might also point out that several of the Older Orders of Priests; i.e. for example, the...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I might also point out that several of the Older Orders of Priests; i.e. for example, the Dominicans, the Servites, etc.; used to have their own rite of Mass. Most of those have been abandoned. But some retain some remnant of their rite. For example, a Servite priest always begins the Mass with the first part of the Hail Mary. And that is still an official part of the Mass in a Servite Church.

--hide--
I know much about the Servites, having worked in one of their schools. Interesting facts you are pointing out here. Thanks, again.

12/15/2012 new

Tom, I think the Church has always been more known for bering "One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic" than being either a big tent or dipolar. In my opinion, Athanasius, the early Church Father, that almost singlehandedly led the Church to overcome Arianism, might take issue with the comparison of the idea that there are two different appeals or characters in the Masses in question, one in an intellectually oriented TLM and the other in an emotionally oriented NO, with the divine and human natures of Jesus Christ. His coinage and preaching of the doctrine, Hypostatic union of those natures, helped put Arianism out of business. In my opinion, the TLM appeals to the craving for the sublime in our emotions and the NO more to the sympathetic. So, in my opinion, I think that is a false dichotomy.
What do you think?

12/15/2012 new

(Quote) Carl-98335 said: A coworker who is also a counselor advised me to step away from Mass attendance completely for six ...
(Quote) Carl-98335 said:

A coworker who is also a counselor advised me to step away from Mass attendance completely for six months at least, just to step back and gain some perspective. I'm actually wondering if that's a good idea.

--hide--



You wouldn't be justified in not going to Mass, but you might want to try a different parish.

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