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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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11/29/2012 new
Eh. I find that mindset everywhere." I go to x parish because of Y." its a common occurance now. The fact that some of us prefer a Mass where there is not constant noise whats the difference.
11/29/2012 new
(Quote) Tim-734178 said: Lina Well for starters, many trads while accepting that the OF is a valid liturgy, also think that the EF is...
(Quote) Tim-734178 said: Lina

Well for starters, many trads while accepting that the OF is a valid liturgy, also think that the EF is a better expression of Catholic Worship. Some find this offensive and I appologize for that but its the way it is. Many Eastern rite people prefer the EF to the OF as well.

A Trads spirituality revolves around the EF. They tend to be more interested in the Church Fathers than modern writers like Scott Hahn (not that Dr Hann is a bad read).

Hope this helps a bit.
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I would like to know more also. I am unfamiliar with these terms EF and OF. Forgive my ignorance. All I know is that Latin Mass people I know INSIST that the Latin mass is the only "correct" mass and that the regular mass is all wrong.

Last summer I stopped by a church I had never been to before for mass. I think it turned out to be Novus Ordo but I am still not sure. The mass was in English and the priest on the altar was separated from the people. I was the only woman wearing jeans and not wearing a veil. Boy did I feel like out of place. To make matters worse, the priest made an announcement at the beginning of mass. Something to the effect that if anyone was not a traditional mass attendee, that they should not recieve communion (something like that- i was a little stunned by the announcement and don't remember exactly what he said). I felt that announcement was specifically for me and that everyone was focused at me. I sat through the mass because I was too embarrassed to get up and leave.

After the mass, I should have known, "the women" were waiting for me outside. They of course were very nice to me, but proceeded to tell me that everything about the regular mass was wrong and we were not attending the true mass- the correct mass. I kind of felt ganged up on and was just stuck there without an escape. I felt like I was in a different world. I listened to them, politely thanked them and said I would think about what they said and got out of that parking lot quickly. I had no idea that Catholics could be the same and yet so different.

I recently was communicating with Latin Mass man here on CM. He said from the beginning that he would respect my preferences (in case things worked out for us), but I don't think he meant it. It felt every communication centered around him convincing me that the Latin mass was the only valid mass. I thought this would be a problem for us because I felt he wasn't going to compromise even though he said he would, and that perhaps he wasn't going to let up on the pressure until I gave in. Things didn't work out for other reasons, but even in a perfect situation, there would have been problems over this.

Well, that's my limited experience with the traditional mass participants.
11/29/2012 new

(Quote) Josephine-586127 said: I would like to know more also. I am unfamiliar with these terms EF and OF. Forgive my ignor...
(Quote) Josephine-586127 said:

I would like to know more also. I am unfamiliar with these terms EF and OF. Forgive my ignorance. All I know is that Latin Mass people I know INSIST that the Latin mass is the only "correct" mass and that the regular mass is all wrong.

Last summer I stopped by a church I had never been to before for mass. I think it turned out to be Novus Ordo but I am still not sure. The mass was in English and the priest on the altar was separated from the people. I was the only woman wearing jeans and not wearing a veil. Boy did I feel like out of place. To make matters worse, the priest made an announcement at the beginning of mass. Something to the effect that if anyone was not a traditional mass attendee, that they should not recieve communion (something like that- i was a little stunned by the announcement and don't remember exactly what he said). I felt that announcement was specifically for me and that everyone was focused at me. I sat through the mass because I was too embarrassed to get up and leave.

After the mass, I should have known, "the women" were waiting for me outside. They of course were very nice to me, but proceeded to tell me that everything about the regular mass was wrong and we were not attending the true mass- the correct mass. I kind of felt ganged up on and was just stuck there without an escape. I felt like I was in a different world. I listened to them, politely thanked them and said I would think about what they said and got out of that parking lot quickly. I had no idea that Catholics could be the same and yet so different.

I recently was communicating with Latin Mass man here on CM. He said from the beginning that he would respect my preferences (in case things worked out for us), but I don't think he meant it. It felt every communication centered around him convincing me that the Latin mass was the only valid mass. I thought this would be a problem for us because I felt he wasn't going to compromise even though he said he would, and that perhaps he wasn't going to let up on the pressure until I gave in. Things didn't work out for other reasons, but even in a perfect situation, there would have been problems over this.

Well, that's my limited experience with the traditional mass participants.
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OF = Ordinary Form. The Novus Order, post VII Mass that is celebrated in most parishes. This CAN be done in Latin, or any other language. The rubrics and prayers would still be the same, just in a different language

EF = Extraordinary Form. The Tridentine Mass from pre-VII. This will be done in Latin, priest facing the alter at the head of the people etc.

It sounds like you may have stumbled upon an SSPX group (Society of Saint Pious X). They are a group who, while they have not (as of yet anyway) been formally declared schismatics by the Vatican, are not legitimately exercising priestly functions. Actual membership in the SSPX is limited to priests, but they have lay followers. They hate VII and are obsessed with the Tridentine Mass. If they are in fact SSPX, I would steer clear of them, just like the Pope has requested.

There are a number of different goupings of people who can come under the umbrella of "traditionalist." It sounds like you encountered one of the extreme ones.

There are less extreme outlooks who prefer the Tridentine Mass to the Novus Ordo, but do not claim the Novus Ordo to be invalid. Sadly, as usual, the extremists tend to get the most "press."

The Tridentine Mass, as you no doubt observed, is a very different experience than the Novus Ordo. Being singled out and embarassed by the priest and congregation might have made the finer points of the EF a little hard to see, but there is certainly beauty there.

11/29/2012 new

(Quote) Lina-796057 said: Actually, no. But thanks, anyway.
(Quote) Lina-796057 said:

Actually, no. But thanks, anyway.

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I think Tim is quite right that there is a different mindset. I don't know that I'm going to be able to do a good job of putting it into words, but I'll make a stab at it.

As Catholics, we have many spiritual tools available to us that our Protestant brethren lack. This is a two-edged sword; it can be very useful, but you can easily cut yourself with it. The Protestant approach is simpler and they have less things they can trip themselves up with, but at the same time they also don't have as many options for help in their spiritual lives.

The traditionalists LIKE those tools. A lot. The non-traditionalists are more indifferent to them. This can easily lead to differences in the way daily life is conducted.

Is that any more helpful?

11/29/2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: I think Tim is quite right that there is a different mindset. I don't know that I'm going ...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

I think Tim is quite right that there is a different mindset. I don't know that I'm going to be able to do a good job of putting it into words, but I'll make a stab at it.

As Catholics, we have many spiritual tools available to us that our Protestant brethren lack. This is a two-edged sword; it can be very useful, but you can easily cut yourself with it. The Protestant approach is simpler and they have less things they can trip themselves up with, but at the same time they also don't have as many options for help in their spiritual lives.

The traditionalists LIKE those tools. A lot. The non-traditionalists are more indifferent to them. This can easily lead to differences in the way daily life is conducted.

Is that any more helpful?

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Please name the tools.

11/29/2012 new
Thank you John for your response. Thank you for confirming that I must have stumbled on an extreme group. It was a bit of a turn-off. Glad to know it is not always this way.

I do also remember going to a Latin mass here in Manhattan about 15 years ago at the Church of St Ann, which no longer exists. I tried my best to follow along, but didn't understand what the priest was saying. I did not feel out of place, however, nor did I feel singled out. I was quite comfortable there. It was simply a different type of Catholic mass that I was used to.
11/29/2012 new
Yes, John. I am curious to learn also.
11/29/2012 new

(Quote) Lina-796057 said: Please name the tools.
(Quote) Lina-796057 said:

Please name the tools.

--hide--

Sigh- I KNEW you were going to do that! wink

Let me attempt more of a non-exhaustive but integrated example.

Everybody goes to church on Sunday. Protestants are engaged in praise and worship (and there is nothing wrong with that!) but as Catholics (and you can largely throw the Orthodox in with us for the general intent of this discussion) we get to participate in the Eucharist. So not only do we get to offer praise and worship to God, but we are also invited to share in the Last Supper. That has implications.

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a tremendously significant thing. We are supposed to be in a state of grace when we receive communion. That means that we should show up to the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis. Not coincidentally, regular use of the confessional makes the entire process more helpful. I know I for one feel dumb about having to tell Father about the same sins time and time again. Knowing that I'm going to show up for confession sooner rather than later gives me more motivation to try harder to beat back some of the temptations in our lives. (note: I'm not particularly claiming to be a traditionalist. While many "average" Catholics would probably look at me as such, the truly hard core traditionalists would scoff at the notion.)

One of the things that helps fight against temptation is a frequent reminder of our calling as followers of Christ. Daily Mass (which can admitedly be hard to swing in many people's lives) is one way of doing that. But even simple devotions such as praying the Angelus three times a day is helpful to keeping a Christian attitude. If you're more ambitious, you can go for the whole Liturgy of the Hours. Or even just parts of it.

So if your goal is to be in a state of grace every Sunday so you can receive communion (or every day if you go to daily Mass!), your fight against sin becomes more of an immediate and constant battle. The daily devotions that the Catholic Church has such an abundance of can help you try and maintain a proper Christian attitude. The sacramants can give you the grace to carry on and the motivation to want to.

Does that kind of answer your question?

11/29/2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: Sigh- I KNEW you were going to do that! Let me attempt more of a non-exhaustive but integra...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

Sigh- I KNEW you were going to do that!

Let me attempt more of a non-exhaustive but integrated example.

Everybody goes to church on Sunday. Protestants are engaged in praise and worship (and there is nothing wrong with that!) but as Catholics (and you can largely throw the Orthodox in with us for the general intent of this discussion) we get to participate in the Eucharist. So not only do we get to offer praise and worship to God, but we are also invited to share in the Last Supper. That has implications.

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a tremendously significant thing. We are supposed to be in a state of grace when we receive communion. That means that we should show up to the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis. Not coincidentally, regular use of the confessional makes the entire process more helpful. I know I for one feel dumb about having to tell Father about the same sins time and time again. Knowing that I'm going to show up for confession sooner rather than later gives me more motivation to try harder to beat back some of the temptations in our lives. (note: I'm not particularly claiming to be a traditionalist. While many "average" Catholics would probably look at me as such, the truly hard core traditionalists would scoff at the notion.)

One of the things that helps fight against temptation is a frequent reminder of our calling as followers of Christ. Daily Mass (which can admitedly be hard to swing in many people's lives) is one way of doing that. But even simple devotions such as praying the Angelus three times a day is helpful to keeping a Christian attitude. If you're more ambitious, you can go for the whole Liturgy of the Hours. Or even just parts of it.

So if your goal is to be in a state of grace every Sunday so you can receive communion (or every day if you go to daily Mass!), your fight against sin becomes more of an immediate and constant battle. The daily devotions that the Catholic Church has such an abundance of can help you try and maintain a proper Christian attitude. The sacramants can give you the grace to carry on and the motivation to want to.

Does that kind of answer your question?

--hide--
You wrote a very fine explanation here, John! Thanks for the effort!

But as to your question......I don't think so. What you described is common, every-day understanding, the way I already live (maybe not the Angelus or Liturgy of the Hours, but other formal prayer time). Are you basically saying that ....oh, I already forgot the abbreviations...that the modern form of Catholic worship, or the modern worshipers, are virtually Protestants, whereas the attendees/worshipers in the old form are truer Catholics?

11/29/2012 new

(Quote) Lina-796057 said: You wrote a very fine explanation here, John! Thanks for the effort! But as to your questi...
(Quote) Lina-796057 said:

You wrote a very fine explanation here, John! Thanks for the effort!

But as to your question......I don't think so. What you described is common, every-day understanding, the way I already live (maybe not the Angelus or Liturgy of the Hours, but other formal prayer time). Are you basically saying that ....oh, I already forgot the abbreviations...that the modern form of Catholic worship, or the modern worshipers, are virtually Protestants, whereas the attendees/worshipers in the old form are truer Catholics?

--hide--

Absolutely not, although that is exactly what the folks on the fringe edge think.

You don't have to be a traditionalist to engage in a fully Catholic lifestyle. I do think that the traditionalists are more likely to fully immerse themselves in it. But it's hardly their exclusive property, no matter what the fringe groups think.

There is more to the story...but I'm having trouble putting it into words. I'll have to think about it further.

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