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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Dec 2nd 2012 new

(Quote) Carl-98335 said: I just want to go to Mass, see Jesus, and worship in peace. That's it.
(Quote) Carl-98335 said:

I just want to go to Mass, see Jesus, and worship in peace. That's it.

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Good. Go to the Mass you feel best suits your spiritual needs and preferences. Don't give such statements so much power over you. They are incorrect and reflect a certain prejudice some in the Church have. Dismiss them charitably. be the Best Carl you can be and try ot to worry about others.

Dec 2nd 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: I paint what I see. This has been my experience over the past 35+ years. There are p...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


I paint what I see. This has been my experience over the past 35+ years. There are plenty of exceptions, but in the most part this observation is confirmed time and time again.


I'm not the only one saying this. Many others on CM and elsewhere have similar observations. I recently heard a taped sermon by an FSSP priest setting forth many of these characteristics in a sermon given at a TLM to a church full of (bristling no doubt) Trads.


Why is that? Were we all doped in one of those clown and balloon Masses the Trads are always squawking about? Or is there, perhaps, some solid and consistent basis for this "stereotype"?

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David,

Are you not appalled at any of the extreme versions of the Novus Ordo Mass that have occurred since its introduction? Have you no problem with clowns on the altar during Mass or do you simply doubt these egregious acts have occurred?

I accept wholeheartedly the Novus Ordo Mass; I grew up with this. I have attended some, however, which were beyond the pall. (You can't possibly be denying that many priests have pushed the bounds of propriety and canon law when they have offered Mass in the Novus Ordo form, could you?)


Dec 2nd 2012 new
I doubt it. The Trad is probably incapable of the teeniest tiniest compromise.

>>In all fairness, it goes both ways.
Dec 2nd 2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: David,Are you not appalled at any of the extreme versions of the Novus Ordo Mass that h...
(Quote) William-607613 said:

David,

Are you not appalled at any of the extreme versions of the Novus Ordo Mass that have occurred since its introduction? Have you no problem with clowns on the altar during Mass or do you simply doubt these egregious acts have occurred?

I accept wholeheartedly the Novus Ordo Mass; I grew up with this. I have attended some, however, which were beyond the pall. (You can't possibly be denying that many priests have pushed the bounds of propriety and canon law when they have offered Mass in the Novus Ordo form, could you?)

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for crying out loud!! are you going to trot out this TIRED old canard yet again?? it just makes trads look silly.


there were very few of those so-called clown and balloon masses ad the few there were occurred in the 70's ad 80's. that monkey busiess is mostly long behind us. you rarely see liturgical abuses these days. the bishops who tolerated or encouraged them are long gone. the few places you see abuses are out of the way convents or campus centers - rarely in parishes. so give it a rest. i protested vocally all through that awful time in the american church. took a lot of lumps for it. gladly it's behind us.



Dec 2nd 2012 new

I prefer attending traditional Novus Ordo masses. Is that thoroughly confusing? Not every Novus Ordo mass has guitars, catchy pop hymns or homilies where "Praise the Lord!" is exclaimed. Most Novus Ordo masses that I have attended are actually very reverent and a bit "old school Catholic". It doesn't get more traditional than "Ave Maria".

I just would like to add a couple of reflections.

I have attended some Novus Ordo masses where the music is a bit more of the catchy pop stuff - newer hymns, not always on an organ, sometimes a CD on a sound system. Actually, the CD on the sound system in one church is very traditional with professional choirs singing traditional Catholic hymns. The thing is that the more modern sound captures the hearts of the younger folks in attendance, which is not a bad thing. Something has to be done to bring younger people to Church on their own when they reach adulthood besides a once-a-year World Youth Day gathering. I don't blame a priest for bringing a beautiful hymn like "Like a Sunflower" into the mass.

The Church has a long history, and while preserving tradition is important, sometimes there are reasons for why some changes happen. As for receiving communion on the tongue, it was my understanding that much of the move to communion in the hand (and the move away from having the consecrated wine in the communion line also) related more to avoiding transmission of illness amongst the faithful gathered for Mass, something that we did not know about in pre-medieval times. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.

Dec 2nd 2012 new

Sorry, I guess the original question in the thread asked about a traditionalist dating a non-traditionalist. OK, we are all Catholic. People talk about the differences between TLM and NO attendees like they are from different planets. I don't think it is too hard to focus on what there is in common.

As the wedding Mass will have to be celebrated in one form or the other, not both, pick one. Both are Catholic. Is it really the end of the world to have a wedding Mass that may be a bit different from what you are used to? One Catholic parish I attended has little children bring up the offeratory gifts. That is different from other churches, but it is not "wrong" or "illegal" or "against Church teaching".

As for attending Mass as a couple and later as a family with children, give children some credit for adaptability and teach them that both Masses are Catholic, one Mommy attended more growing up, the other was Daddy's usual Mass. If you end up going to one Mass more often, it is not the end of the world. Kids do not have psychological crises over stuff like this - apparently only adults do. A lot of the kids I knew growing up attended English-language Masses at school, but on Sundays went to Mass with their families at an ethnic church where Mass was in another language. Not one of the kids ended up in psychotherapy over it. All the masses were Catholic and kids are a lot more able to adjust to things that adults give them credit for sometimes.

Turning every difference between two people into some unsurmountable crisis is a recipe for relationship burnout. My way or the highway usually leaves one person all alone by the side of the road with a suitcase. Just my two cents

Dec 2nd 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Let me further clarify: The TLM is not merely beautiful and valid: it the highest and best rite o...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Let me further clarify: The TLM is not merely beautiful and valid: it the highest and best rite of Catholic worship. It is perfect prayer.


But it is does not follow that the Blessed Sacrament confected at a Novis Ordo Mass is somehow inferior to the same Sacrament in a TLM? Such a statement is barking madness, hateful, blasphemous, and IMO possibly a sin against the Holy Spirit.

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The previous comment seemed a bit mean-spirited. I do, however, agree with you on this sentiment.

Dec 2nd 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and those of a less traditional more modern vein? I'...
(Quote) John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and those of a less traditional more modern vein? I'm talking about worship style here and less about faith matters.
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I do think it depends on the persons involved and the different styles. The longer I attend the Traditional Latin Mass (have for 14 yrs now), the more difficult I find it to attend the Novus Ordo Mass. However, I have been to some very reverant and beautiful Novus Masses, but they are few and far between. I enjoy attending the Maronite rite Mass sometimes too. I am not criticizing the Novus Ordo Mass or the people who attend it, but I do think that over time, most people find they really prefer one or the other.

Dec 2nd 2012 new

(Quote) Donna-848472 said: (Quote) Rose-921185 said: In my opinion, it may be harder for a person who...
(Quote) Donna-848472 said:

[quote]Rose-921185 said:

In my opinion, it may be harder for a person who prefers the EF /TLM to change to the OF /NO as there are elements that would be very distracting in worshipping faithfully.

There are no EF/TLM in my area, therefore, I have never attended a TLM. I do not understand Latin, and if the homely is in Latin I would not receive the message that the priest is communicating, thereby missing the opportunity to reap the lessons from it. I am wondering what the elements are that are very distracting in worshipping faithfully in the OF/NO since I have no comparison with not having attended a TLM.

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Our chuch has Latin/English and Spanish/English missals for anyone to use. The readings are usually in both Latin and English and the homily is always in the venacular.

Dec 2nd 2012 new

In as much as Paul VI remarked in a public speech "that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church", we may not take the differences in the two Masses in question lightly, expecially as it relates to something commanding our utmost respect, the sacrament of matrimony and all it entails. The dictum "lex orandi ... lex credendi" or the "law of prayer dictates the law of belief" is at question. The 1.5 hour video on Youtube.com, "Reform or Revolt: The Mass of Pope Paul VI" gives a very adequate digest of the history of Liturgical Reform that is at the heart of this question. It's very respectful and well done. It's not just Vatican II were talking about here. It would behoove those who want to understand what is happening to our Church, even those who want to go into the commitment of marriage with eyes open take the time to learn more about what's going on. We are all struggling under the limits of our ability to gather and assimilate information. This was released in 2003 but presents a very useful overview in my opinion. Maybe it will add to our mutual respect for the difficulty we share in this struggle.
I believe it was the Ottoviani Intervention that forced a rewriting of Paul VI's first preface to the New Mass. All parties understood how difficult the introduction of the New Mass would be. So why wouldn't it make dating decisions difficult. Who are we kidding? And how else can we overcome those except but by education on the matter? Honest discovery, and great humility, may help overcome the "make or break" problems.

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