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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Dec 3rd 2012 new

For my part, I grew up in the Novus Ordo and only became Traditionalist since August 2010. I personally find every variety of the 'my way only' attitude to be repugnant, whether it be:

-an FSSP-er saying 'I distrust the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, Independents and refuse to have anything to do with them.'
-an Novus Ordo-ite who stridently prefers the 'Ordinary Form' over the superior 'Extraordinary Form' because it's 'more engaging and I can't understand Latin', and won't ever attend a TLM because of it.
-a bunker-mentality Trad who gets ridiculously hung up over modesty issues, conspiracy theories, and other such tiresome Trad tropes.

I've found a good balance in my faith life where I practice what I believe, worship in the liturgy that the Holy Ghost has led me to, steer clear of what I don't agree on with other Catholics, and be reasonable with everyone I come in contact with.

Clarification:
-Modesty IS important, but I believe it can get taken too far. If men have a problem with women who don't meet their standards of what constitutes modest attire out of concern of having occasions of sin, then that is the man's responsibility to avoid it, and is in no way the woman's fault if she wants to look appealing. Trust godly women to know what they are doing, including how they dress.

Dec 3rd 2012 new

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Dec 3rd 2012 new

Respectfully speaking, I do not think that Catholic brothers and sisters move forward or grow in faith when they insist that one Mass is illegitimate, and when they continually spread conspiracy theories that try to dig up dirt about the Catholic Church leaders of Vatican II without providing evidence. Suggestively insinuating about a Church leader "Was he or was he not a freemason?" is offensive. (This was viewed in a video mentioned by a poster, and not quoted directly by a CM poster, just to be clear.) If people don't have proof, then don't cast aspersions about others. That's not history, that's a smear job. Does "Thou shalt not bear false witness" mean anything any more?

The English translation of the Mass after Vatican II did waver slightly from the original Latin, but that has been corrected in the year 2012. English is also not the only language of the Novus Ordo Mass, and translations in other languages did not have the problems that the English translation did.

The point of this thread was to discuss how differences in liturgical preferences might affect a relationship, specifically a marriage. Receiving the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is indeed a very sacred and serious event in one's life not to be taken lightly. If there are Catholics who find the Novus Ordo Mass so odious, then there is nothing I or anyone else can say to change that. However, I have some wild advice for those people: go talk to an atheist or an agnostic. You will be so utterly disgusted by what you hear that a Novus Ordo attendee might actually seem like a Catholic to you. Guess what? A Novus Ordo attendee is a Catholic.

To be perfectly honest, it is deeply offensive to have Catholic brothers and sisters attacking the Church and their fellow Catholics because of changes in the Mass that happened over 40 years ago. Yes, that's right, people who are middle-aged may only know one Mass over their lifetime. Moreover, the Traditional Latin Mass is still valid. No one took it away from anyone.

In the spirit of allowing the the discussion of ideas in a Catholic forum I respect the right of those to disagree with what I have written. However, I will not be responding to this thread further, nor will I be participating in a tear down of the Catholic Church conducted by those who don't have things their way 100% and want something to grumble about. God bless. Dove

Dec 3rd 2012 new

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Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Angela-374523 said: Respectfully speaking, I do not think that Catholic brothers and sisters move forward or grow in...
(Quote) Angela-374523 said:

Respectfully speaking, I do not think that Catholic brothers and sisters move forward or grow in faith when they insist that one Mass is illegitimate, and when they continually spread conspiracy theories that try to dig up dirt about the Catholic Church leaders of Vatican II without providing evidence. Suggestively insinuating about a Church leader "Was he or was he not a freemason?" is offensive. (This was viewed in a video mentioned by a poster, and not quoted directly by a CM poster, just to be clear.) If people don't have proof, then don't cast aspersions about others. That's not history, that's a smear job. Does "Thou shalt not bear false witness" mean anything any more?

The English translation of the Mass after Vatican II did waver slightly from the original Latin, but that has been corrected in the year 2012. English is also not the only language of the Novus Ordo Mass, and translations in other languages did not have the problems that the English translation did.

The point of this thread was to discuss how differences in liturgical preferences might affect a relationship, specifically a marriage. Receiving the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is indeed a very sacred and serious event in one's life not to be taken lightly. If there are Catholics who find the Novus Ordo Mass so odious, then there is nothing I or anyone else can say to change that. However, I have some wild advice for those people: go talk to an atheist or an agnostic. You will be so utterly disgusted by what you hear that a Novus Ordo attendee might actually seem like a Catholic to you. Guess what? A Novus Ordo attendee is a Catholic.

To be perfectly honest, it is deeply offensive to have Catholic brothers and sisters attacking the Church and their fellow Catholics because of changes in the Mass that happened over 40 years ago. Yes, that's right, people who are middle-aged may only know one Mass over their lifetime. Moreover, the Traditional Latin Mass is still valid. No one took it away from anyone.

In the spirit of allowing the the discussion of ideas in a Catholic forum I respect the right of those to disagree with what I have written. However, I will not be responding to this thread further, nor will I be participating in a tear down of the Catholic Church conducted by those who don't have things their way 100% and want something to grumble about. God bless.

--hide--

Angela, no one who has posted on this thread has attacked anyone for the form of the Mass they like. Some have stated that they had one preferance or the other. But no one has denigrated either form. The negative comments were all directed at people one or another poster mentioned had treated them shabbily.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: you rarely see liturgical abuses these days. the bishops who tolerated or encouraged them are lon...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

you rarely see liturgical abuses these days. the bishops who tolerated or encouraged them are long gone. the few places you see abuses are out of the way convents or campus centers - rarely in parishes


--hide--


I wish that was true, I can't seem to not see them. Then again, I was a Master of Ceremonies and Sacristan for several years, so I have an eye for liturgical orthopraxy.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Andrew-915897 said: I wish that was true, I can't seem to not see them. Then again, I was a Master ...
(Quote) Andrew-915897 said:


I wish that was true, I can't seem to not see them. Then again, I was a Master of Ceremonies and Sacristan for several years, so I have an eye for liturgical orthopraxy.

--hide--
You're in my neck of the woods, Andrew, though in a different diocese. It's going off-topic, I know, but what do you see as local liturgical abuses? I'm familiar with St Anthony's in CG.
And to keep it on topic, would you not date someone who does not recognize abuses, or would you enjoy educating someone like that?

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Lina-796057 said: You're in my neck of the woods, Andrew, though in a different diocese. It's going off-topi...
(Quote) Lina-796057 said:

You're in my neck of the woods, Andrew, though in a different diocese. It's going off-topic, I know, but what do you see as local liturgical abuses? I'm familiar with St Anthony's in CG.
And to keep it on topic, would you not date someone who does not recognize abuses, or would you enjoy educating someone like that?

--hide--

Actually, Lina, I've been heading up to the Diocese of Phoenix more often, as I often have to take advantage of Mass at odd times, such as late night at ASU (10 pm w/ Schola) or 2 pm in Spanish (my overslept Mass) over in Queen Creek. When I can sacrifice the sleep (night job) I go to the Latin Novus Ordo at Corpus Christi in Ahwatukee. I love the Latin because I can understand it (though Father's accent and pronunciation is awful, God Bless him), and I find it's a more beautiful expression of the prayers. Obviously, YMMV based on Latin comprehension ;)


The most prominent abuse is the aforementioned overuse of "Eucharistic Ministers" or more correctly, Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. I also see smaller things that most have no idea about, and I see them because I happen to know the red and the black. For example, the Chalice is always supposed to have a Chalice Veil. I rarely see a Chalice veil. The Sacramentary is supposed to be removed from the Altar during incensation at the Offertory. Again, rare to see that happen. So in sum, I can't recall any egregious examples, but unfortunately the many little things, coupled with a somewhat casual attitude towards the liturgy and the current state of Sacred Music leaves me longing for a more sacred and beautiful practice of the liturgy. But again, I feel this more keenly, because of what I have been blessed to experience.


I never knew a lot of this stuff until I was Master of Ceremonies and Head Sacristan under a Norbertine Liturgical "guru" and it doesn't seem to matter at all unless one understands the meaning of the actions. That's why I think it's a blessing to know so much, and I think it would be a good thing if more Catholics understood the liturgy, so I would definitely date someone even if she didn't know much about the liturgy, and I would absolutely love explaining it.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: David,Are you not appalled at any of the extreme versions of the Novus Ordo...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




David,

Are you not appalled at any of the extreme versions of the Novus Ordo Mass that have occurred since its introduction? Have you no problem with clowns on the altar during Mass or do you simply doubt these egregious acts have occurred?

I accept wholeheartedly the Novus Ordo Mass; I grew up with this. I have attended some, however, which were beyond the pall. (You can't possibly be denying that many priests have pushed the bounds of propriety and canon law when they have offered Mass in the Novus Ordo form, could you?)


--hide--

This is a problem of the priests in question, not the Mass. Already in this thread we've heard an example of a traditionalist "pushing the bounds of propriety and canon law" with an arbitary limitation on who should go to communion.

It is unquestionably true that the clergy has been allowed more free reign in the post VII years, but this is again not the result of any dogmatic change of the church. It is a problem with supervision, or perhaps the will to supervise.

There always have been and always will be bad priests. No Missal will ever change that.

Dec 5th 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: what are you referring to/?? >>I'm referring to the millions of poorly catechized Catho...
(Quote) John-220051 said: what are you referring to/??

>>I'm referring to the millions of poorly catechized Catholics who think that Catholicism and Protestantism are the same thing. I've met countless Catholics who think this way.

Not to mention, the Novus Ordo is often celebrated in many places in a manner resembling the Lutheran services I grew up with.
--hide--



This is my first ever post but a hot topic that interests me. I attended the NO Mass in almost blissful ignorance for the first 47 years of my life. For the last few years it just felt very wrong- talking in Churches, teams of women distributing Holy Communion, wishy washy spiritual guidance and just a plain sense of a lack of reverence in the Real Presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I went to one TLM and have never gone back. I cannot compare the spiritual experience of a TLM and a NO Mass and encourage everyone who has not attended a TLM to do so. Within the TLM one worships God with the sacrifice of Calvary being the focus of the Mass and not liturgical dancing, a round of applause for the "Special Ministers" and the priest being an entertainer ("I don't go to Mass because the priest is boring!"- I go to a football game for entertainment).

While visiting a friend in hospital it really hit home to me what a crisis the Church is in when a priest told me that "Martin Luther was right because that is what we do now." If you asked any Catholic up to 50 years ago to describe Martin Luther and the answer would have been "a heretic".

Without going into the conspiracy theories (which are interesting reading) what are the fruits of the New Mass? It has been part of the progressive slide into complete secularism. Go onto the Home Page here and click on the 6-7 profiles featured and within over 50% of the profiles the individuals will disagree on the Church's teachings on contraception and premarital sex. Is this progressive or regressive in God's eyes? Is the modern Church teaching us appropriately about faith and morals?


I do not attend a SSPX Mass but was recently present at a talk given by Bishop Fellay. He likened the Catholic Faith to a balloon and asked "what happens when you try to take a piece of a balloon?". In our modern world we are told that we can pick and chose what we want and the kind and merciful God wil condone all. The sense of sin has gone and the noticeable lack of access to Confession in the modern Church is also very noticeable.

For those who have never attended a Traditional Mass please do so as it could be the best thing you ever do.


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