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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Dec 5th 2012 new

(Quote) Rose-921185 said: Hi Donna: I hope my comments sound respectful b/c I do intend them to be. I will be attendi...
(Quote) Rose-921185 said:

Hi Donna:

I hope my comments sound respectful b/c I do intend them to be. I will be attending a OF/NO mass tonight. I love the priest as he is a very kind and loving pastor. There are things in the liturgy which bother me though as I have since learned more about the topic. Even with the new Romal Missal changes, some priests still use their own words for the concecration and the hymns which are not consistent with traditional teachings. Some of the music is too "catchy pop" and the lyrics are not always in line with traditional teachings. Communion is often recieved in the hand instead of on the tongue (there is much written about why this is not the preferred form), and the congregation stands until all have recieved Communion instead of parishioners kneeling after reception. Sometimes I also find the homilies to be a big joking session and not related to the scriptural teachings presented that day. Our TLM priest can make a joke as well but the focus is still on the scripture and tradtional teachings of the church. He said that his job is to get us to heaven, not necessarily to be popular and have people like him (but people do like him). At the TLM, most people have Latin-English missals that help you follow along. The readings are first sung in Latin, then recited in English as well. The homily is in English. Sometimes the OF/NO seems too liberal and liturgically sloppy, but this by no means is the norm in most cases.


Cardinal Arinze, Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments from 2002 to 2008 (not necessarly TLM), has written and spoken much about these things. Here is a start to finding some more information.


www.youtube.com


www.youtube.com


www.youtube.com


I noticed you are from Edmonton. If you are interested at some time, there is the TLM at Our Lady of Good Help (9809 - 76 Ave). I started going to the TLM about 7 years ago and have learned to really love the Mass. It did take some getting used to, and I found Latin easy to pick up (as I learned Spanish, French and Italian first). I am not a perfect Catholic, and sometimes admittedly I don't follow along with every word at the TLM (I sometimes just listen to the hymns that are sung throughout the Mass). I also appreciate the moments of silence in the TLM, and I have not seen much of this in the OF/NO. The High Mass (Sundays and Holy days of obligation) is 1 and a half hours long, the OF/NO usually finishes in less than an hour.


Like I said in my previious comment, I have learned things about Catholic traditional teachings and b/c of this I prefer the TLM. That does not mean that I am "holier" than those that attend the OF/NO, and there are many there that the Lord may find more pleasing. It's just that I do want to love our Lord, and by doing so I want to please him by following the tradtional teachings he left us with in the church.

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After attending the OF/NO mass on Saturday night and the TLM/EF on Sunday, something else came to my mind, and others have mentioned it as well. The OF regularly uses "Eucharistic Ministers", actually "Extraordinary Ministers", and I have learned this while this is allowed this is actually problematic in the church. The priests have considerable training in the seminary and their hands are concecrated to allow them to perform the celebration of the Mass. Extraordinary ministers were previously used in extraordinary circumstances to allow large groups of people to receive Communion where the work of the priests would be severely limited. Extraordinary ministers do have some training, but nothing similar to a priest, and their hands are not concecrated for the Mass. Women often act as Extraordinary Ministers and, if you read scripture, the priesthood and therefore the duties of a priest were reserved for men. I can be a somewhat modern woman (but I am quite traditional too) but I don't believe women should serve in the priesthood or in duties similar to that of the priests. i would extend that to Altar Servers, though I recognize this is not how it is done in the church today. When I was much younger, a woman at our OF/NO parish served as an Extraordinary Minister who was divorced and entered into a relationship that would not be recognized by the church. She did eventually stop her duties but there was a period of time when she still served. I am not judging her but I do wonder how her actions affected those receiving the sacrament. How did that affect the graces of the sacrament? Cardinal Arinze (yes, I bring him up again) addressed this once on EWTN and spoke of how this has become too liberal in the church. I can't seem to find the speech on youtube, so maybe you can google it for more information. This is probably my biggest barrier with the OF/NO. It does not make the OF/NO invalid for it is still is a valid Mass. It does however seem to be a step in the wrong direction that needs to be remedied by the church as a whole.


The daily Mass on EWTN is OF/NO but has Latin hymns, and parishioners kneel for Communion and receive it on the tongue. It is a lovely Mass and a good example of how things should be done.

Dec 5th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: This is a problem of the priests in question, not the Mass. Already in this thread we've heard...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

This is a problem of the priests in question, not the Mass. Already in this thread we've heard an example of a traditionalist "pushing the bounds of propriety and canon law" with an arbitary limitation on who should go to communion.

It is unquestionably true that the clergy has been allowed more free reign in the post VII years, but this is again not the result of any dogmatic change of the church. It is a problem with supervision, or perhaps the will to supervise.

There always have been and always will be bad priests. No Missal will ever change that.

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The format of the Tradtional Latin Mass restrains the priest much more than the format of the Novus Ordo Mass. The attention of the parishioners in the Latin Mass is directed towards the Tabernacle, whereas the attention in the Novus Ordo is directed towards the priest, who is facing the people.

You are correct to point out how the priest is the issue and not the Missal, but it's far too easy for a priest to change the wording in a prayer at his whim when the Mass is offered in the vernacular. As I wrote previously, it wouldn't make sense for him to change the Latin because none of the people in the Church wouldn't even know what he was saying if he did.

It's a moot point. The vocations to the priesthood are disproportionately coming from the orders where the Traditional Latin Mass is offered; we know where the future of the Church is in this area.

This year the Archdiocese of New York had ONE priest ordained.

www.nytimes.com

And guess what form he used to celebrate his first Mass. (I'll give you two, John.) ;) sthughofcluny.org









Dec 5th 2012 new

(Quote) Rose-921185 said: After attending the OF/NO mass on Saturday night and the TLM/EF on Sunday, something ...
(Quote) Rose-921185 said:


After attending the OF/NO mass on Saturday night and the TLM/EF on Sunday, something else came to my mind, and others have mentioned it as well. The OF regularly uses "Eucharistic Ministers", actually "Extraordinary Ministers", and I have learned this while this is allowed this is actually problematic in the church. The priests have considerable training in the seminary and their hands are concecrated to allow them to perform the celebration of the Mass. Extraordinary ministers were previously used in extraordinary circumstances to allow large groups of people to receive Communion where the work of the priests would be severely limited. Extraordinary ministers do have some training, but nothing similar to a priest, and their hands are not concecrated for the Mass. Women often act as Extraordinary Ministers and, if you read scripture, the priesthood and therefore the duties of a priest were reserved for men. I can be a somewhat modern woman (but I am quite traditional too) but I don't believe women should serve in the priesthood or in duties similar to that of the priests. i would extend that to Altar Servers, though I recognize this is not how it is done in the church today. When I was much younger, a woman at our OF/NO parish served as an Extraordinary Minister who was divorced and entered into a relationship that would not be recognized by the church. She did eventually stop her duties but there was a period of time when she still served. I am not judging her but I do wonder how her actions affected those receiving the sacrament. How did that affect the graces of the sacrament? Cardinal Arinze (yes, I bring him up again) addressed this once on EWTN and spoke of how this has become too liberal in the church. I can't seem to find the speech on youtube, so maybe you can google it for more information. This is probably my biggest barrier with the OF/NO. It does not make the OF/NO invalid for it is still is a valid Mass. It does however seem to be a step in the wrong direction that needs to be remedied by the church as a whole.


The daily Mass on EWTN is OF/NO but has Latin hymns, and parishioners kneel for Communion and receive it on the tongue. It is a lovely Mass and a good example of how things should be done.

--hide--



The term "Eucharistic Minister" is a fabrication. They have to use this term because they are using people to distribute Holy Communion in situations that are not extraordinary, which is in violation of the rubrics of the Mass.

Dec 6th 2012 new

(Quote) Chris-427945 said: For my part, I grew up in the Novus Ordo and only became Traditionalist since August 2010. I pers...
(Quote) Chris-427945 said:

For my part, I grew up in the Novus Ordo and only became Traditionalist since August 2010. I personally find every variety of the 'my way only' attitude to be repugnant, whether it be:

-an FSSP-er saying 'I distrust the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, Independents and refuse to have anything to do with them.'
-an Novus Ordo-ite who stridently prefers the 'Ordinary Form' over the superior 'Extraordinary Form' because it's 'more engaging and I can't understand Latin', and won't ever attend a TLM because of it.
-a bunker-mentality Trad who gets ridiculously hung up over modesty issues, conspiracy theories, and other such tiresome Trad tropes.

I've found a good balance in my faith life where I practice what I believe, worship in the liturgy that the Holy Ghost has led me to, steer clear of what I don't agree on with other Catholics, and be reasonable with everyone I come in contact with.

Clarification:
-Modesty IS important, but I believe it can get taken too far. If men have a problem with women who don't meet their standards of what constitutes modest attire out of concern of having occasions of sin, then that is the man's responsibility to avoid it, and is in no way the woman's fault if she wants to look appealing. Trust godly women to know what they are doing, including how they dress.

--hide--

Uh oh. You're headed into a world of pain for speaking the TRUTH in this forum.


Love the "bunker mentality" description!


Love the comments on modesty. Men who fear women aren't men at all. There's nothing more appallingly immature than some weener who can't stop playing with himself and bitterly complains about women who "make" him commit these sins.


When some twerp starts this irresponsible nonsense and says the priest should scold an immodestly-attired woman privately, I like to ask him how he'd feel if the priest took him aside and said that a parishioner who struggles with same-sex attraction complained that his attire is that parishioner to be distracted during Mass and to commit sins of impurity thinking about it afterwards. The reaction is always OUTRAGE. How dare anyone accuse him of deliberately enticing gay men during Mass - the man with the impure and unnatural desires is to blame!! I say, Bingo! OK then, so apply this same principle to what you're saying. If a woman's attire arouses you, that's because it's YOUR OWN FAULT!


A lot of Trad men have the developmental level of early teens. This is why they gravitate to bossy Trad women. They never learned how to relate to a wife, so they seek out a mother to replace the one they've outgrown. Those are the bold ones. The meeker ones live with their mothers forever.


Jesus said: "By their fruits you shall know them" (Mt 7:16). After 45 years of dissenting isolation, what has the Traditionalist movement accomplished? A big fat zero. Maybe it's time for some prayer and introspection, dontcha think?




Dec 6th 2012 new

Interesting generalizations, David. And useful too. I wonder what Padre Pio would say. I know you know who he is. Just in case, the stigmatist who passed away just before the general enforcement of the switch to the New Mass.

Dec 6th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: Interesting generalizations, David. And useful too. I wonder what Padre Pio would say. I know y...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

Interesting generalizations, David. And useful too. I wonder what Padre Pio would say. I know you know who he is. Just in case, the stigmatist who passed away just before the general enforcement of the switch to the New Mass.

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He remained very faithful to the pope - even when commissions appointed by different popes persecuted and abused him. I'm not certain what he'd have thought of the Novus ordo. I do know that he would never rebel against the Church or his vow of obedience.

Dec 6th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: Interesting generalizations, David. And useful too. I wonder what Padre Pio would say. I know y...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

Interesting generalizations, David. And useful too. I wonder what Padre Pio would say. I know you know who he is. Just in case, the stigmatist who passed away just before the general enforcement of the switch to the New Mass.

--hide--


He also railed about women in short skirts. I'm not sure if this was a cultural thing or purely a religious matter with him. Southern Italy at that time was very conservative in the matter of women's attire.

Dec 6th 2012 new

I would never go back to that church. There are enough other things to argue about that we shouldn't have to worry about such trivial things as the form of taking communion and etc.

Dec 6th 2012 new
(Quote) Ray-566531 said: I find it difficult to believe that a preference about liturgical rites would curtail a loving relationship. We&#...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

I find it difficult to believe that a preference about liturgical rites would curtail a loving relationship. We're all Catholic, right? The Eucharist is still the Eucharist.

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I agree wholeheartedly with you Ray. I have been attending a Traditional Latin Mass regularly for over a year now. Although I prefer going to this mass, that preference is not set in stone. I have no problem with going to the "regular" mass. Relationships are a lot about about making concessions. I think that the ability to make concessions regarding which mass to attend, would depend upon whether the mass choice is political or not.

I find it very difficult to live among people who have extreme political differences from me. Maybe someone else might not have that problem. But since my current mass choice is not based on politics, but more on emotion, I think going to a "regular" mass would not be a problem.

Even if there were political differences related to a mass choice, a couple faced with this issue could go to two different masses or churches, that is alternate masses or churches. Would that be so difficult?
Dec 6th 2012 new

(Quote) Ron-565573 said: I would never go back to that church. There are enough other things to argue about that we shouldn&...
(Quote) Ron-565573 said:

I would never go back to that church. There are enough other things to argue about that we shouldn't have to worry about such trivial things as the form of taking communion and etc.

--hide--


Wise man!

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