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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Dec 13th 2012 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: The fact that WWII or any other war was underway when the U.S. or any other country got involved...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



The fact that WWII or any other war was underway when the U.S. or any other country got involved is irrelevant to whether or not it was just.



Just war teaching accommodates any war, pre-emptive or not, that meets the 4 conditions laid down, none of which speaks to the country acting in defense acting in a pre-emptive or reactive fashion. Granted, meeting the requirement that the damage from the aggressor being lasting, grave, and certain is unquestionably harder to meet in a pre-emptive scenario, but not impossible.

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Just War Theory, as enumerated in the CCC, does require the war to be defensive. The very first sentence in the relavent section states as much, and even emphasizes the very words "legitimate defense by military force".

www.scborromeo.org
Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: What is your basis for claiming that anybody was killed indiscriminately? Just bec...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

What is your basis for claiming that anybody was killed indiscriminately?

Just because they were interested in one person does not mean that it is magically possible to get to him and only him. Look at bin Lauden. It took a decade to do, he had FAR less physical security than Noriega, and he wasn't the only one killed the raid.

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Dear Hojn:

When you start spelling correctly the name of those you speak of, like Osama bin Laden, then you will be able to read about them. I know you are a happy trigger. I'll pray for you, too. Praying

Mari

Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Mari-894290 said: Dear Hojn: When you start spelling correctly the name of those you speak of, l...
(Quote) Mari-894290 said:


Dear Hojn:

When you start spelling correctly the name of those you speak of, like Osama bin Laden, then you will be able to read about them. I know you are a happy trigger. I'll pray for you, too.

Mari

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In other words, you don't have a real answer to the question, so you're taking the low road of slinging insults instead of acting like an adult and honestly debating the question.

I will also point out that you are in violation of forum rules:

No personal inflammatory comments. This includes, but is not limited to the following: Telling someone you will pray for them and doing it in a snide context. If you have prayers to offer, do them in private, and not as a weapon to win an argument

Grow up.

Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Charles-512043 said: Just War Theory, as enumerated in the CCC, d...
(Quote) Charles-512043 said:

Just War Theory, as enumerated in the CCC, does require the war to be defensive. The very first sentence in the relavent section states as much, and even emphasizes the very words "legitimate defense by military force".

www.scborromeo.org
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We've been down this road before, Charles. The fact that you personally absolutely refuse to distinguish between the strategic, operational, and tactical levels of war does not alter the reality that they exist.

A war that is still absolutley defensive in its goals will still involve offensive actions by the defender. Just War Theory also requires that there be a serious prospect for success. Since no war has ever been won without offensive action, it goes to reason that the theory does not arbitarily ban anything that includes an offensive.

Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Julie-909449 said: I've heard all these arguments since 2001. And I got tired of reading the same thing over and...
(Quote) Julie-909449 said:

I've heard all these arguments since 2001. And I got tired of reading the same thing over and over and over... Killing is killing. Terrorists are terrorists Armies are armies, and drones are drones. How do any of us know how it feels like to send a drone out and know there will likely be collateral damage? Hand to hand combat? How do we know unless we've done both. For me, I THINK, but don't know, that hand to hand would be easier since there's no time to think and I'd want to live. For those in power, I see no difference. They're both awful choices. Why would it be easier to kill innocents on either side? Unless there's an assumption that we care for Amerticans more. But look at a 6-year old child. I know people that make choices like that are out there. But it's not our nature unless you think there is no God.


Regard it how you will, but do you think the analyst behind the computer hasn't thought of this? Those of us who are judgemental and that haven't been through it are arrogant at the very least. Who, of us, has been in that position? Do we know how the person in position of power thinks? Horrible choices but they have to be made.

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Julie, "Those of us that are judgemental and that haven't been through it are arrogant at the very least," is probably correct
as you said. Being a soldier goes against human nature anyway and takes its toll on the soldiers psyche.

One thing I know, especially as an American, is that we are able to have these here United States, because many
soldiers stood up to the challenge and fought the good fight to give us this country.

Living up here in the New York area, and having lived in Virginia, I am extremely aware of both the Revolutionary
War and the Civil War. Monuments are all around here for the Revolutionary War. I have a friend who wrote a
book on that war, and how the war was carried out right in our own neighborhoods. His wife stood before Congress
asking to have Dobbs Ferry, NY noted as a Revolutionary town by the US Government.

The Pope has his own responsibility in describing a "just war," if that is possible. But America has its own job in fighting
the war, which now means a new and different arena-- We now have to find terrorists on their own soil preferably
before they make their next attack.

You may be tired of reading the same thing since 2001, but others take this seriously.



Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-143340 said: Same category as assassins. They loiter above as their counterparts conceal, below.
(Quote) Richard-143340 said:

Same category as assassins. They loiter above as their counterparts conceal, below.

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So what is the moral difference between a drone and a sniper?

Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: In other words, you don't have a real answer to the question, so you're taking th...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

In other words, you don't have a real answer to the question, so you're taking the low road of slinging insults instead of acting like an adult and honestly debating the question.

I will also point out that you are in violation of forum rules:

No personal inflammatory comments. This includes, but is not limited to the following: Telling someone you will pray for them and doing it in a snide context. If you have prayers to offer, do them in private, and not as a weapon to win an argument

Grow up.

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You know, John, I was picking up on that also. It really is snide. That was a good comment you made.

Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: In other words, you don't have a real answer to the question, so you're taking th...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

In other words, you don't have a real answer to the question, so you're taking the low road of slinging insults instead of acting like an adult and honestly debating the question.

I will also point out that you are in violation of forum rules:

No personal inflammatory comments. This includes, but is not limited to the following: Telling someone you will pray for them and doing it in a snide context. If you have prayers to offer, do them in private, and not as a weapon to win an argument

Grow up.

--hide--


Thanks for reminding me how much of a sinner I can be, by bringing out the worst in me. I will not deny it. I embrace it. It is people like you whom I love the most. I will pray for you, and hope you do the same for me.

Mari

Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: So what is the moral difference between a drone and a sniper?
(Quote) John-336509 said:

So what is the moral difference between a drone and a sniper?

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In my opinion, no difference.



Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: This is a complicated question, but I think the short answer is, "No, they are not ethi...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:


This is a complicated question, but I think the short answer is, "No, they are not ethical."

Drones fighting drones would be OK in my book.
But, unmanned drones piloted by technicians safe from harm far away, and used to kill human beings, is an immoral use of force. The old idea of battle, man to man, hand to hand, which involved bravery, risk, sacrifice, was bad enough but had a sort of honor in it, brought on by necessity. God is described as the God of Hosts, and of course Host is a euphemism for Great Armies, so armies and war are certainly part of our religious tradition.

But, in the modern era, the warrior has been taken farther and farther back from the death and destruction he wreaks. First with the bow and arrow, then the gun, then cannon. Then with aircraft that fly high above the fray. Then we developed nuclear missiles that kill thousands from a continent away. Now we have drones that seek out and premeditatively kill whomever we want in foreign lands. Soon, they will be used at home to kill our own citizens.

Look at the tend. I do not believe it is ethical at all.

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I am with you Gerald. I am not be able to articulate very well but it seems cowardly to sit at a desk drinking coffee while killing people. I don't mean to say the pilots are cowards only that this type of warfare is. There once where warrior virtues such as courage, discipline, loyalty, toughness and so forth. War is stupid and wasteful and horrible but when they must be fought we should try to do it with some sort of honor and dignity. This is not much more than murder. I guess some might argue that dropping Zyklon B into the gas chamber to kill your enemies is OK too. But I think this is not only unethical but dishonorable to ourselves and our enemies.

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