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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor mentioned something about "sin nature" being passed from father to child because of Adam's sin. This sounded a little odd to me and the verses that he quoted didn't really proof anything. Has anyone else heard of this?

12/23/2012 new

The Protestant angle on "sin nature" is what we know as Original Sin, which we are absolved of at our baptism. However, our Blessed Mother was conceived free from Original Sin. We celebrate Her conception every year on December 8th, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.


Many Protestants reject the Catholic teachings of our Blessed Mother as well as many other things. That's why they're Protestants.


The best thing you can do is to keep as much distance between yourself and these groups as possible. You won't convert them, especially when converting you is often their intent.


theheart

12/23/2012 new

(Quote) Victor-544727 said: The Protestant angle on "sin nature" is what we know as Original Sin, which we are abs...
(Quote) Victor-544727 said:

The Protestant angle on "sin nature" is what we know as Original Sin, which we are absolved of at our baptism. However, our Blessed Mother was conceived free from Original Sin. We celebrate Her conception every year on December 8th, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.


Many Protestants reject the Catholic teachings of our Blessed Mother as well as many other things. That's why they're Protestants.


The best thing you can do is to keep as much distance between yourself and these groups as possible. You won't convert them, especially when converting you is often their intent.

--hide--


I think if you seek out catholic teaching carefully, You will find out the differences in the way protestants "read" scripture and these things. The catholic has special teachings on Mary. I can recommend a blog called Lex Communis by a local guy I am friends with and sometijmes he posts things that show the differences in beliefs. He also has a place on his blog where he reads Aquinas and discusses the virginity of Mary. there is lots of catholic teaching available to you. Keep looking and searching.

12/23/2012 new
(Quote) Renee-44830 said: I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor mentioned something...
(Quote) Renee-44830 said:

I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor mentioned something about "sin nature" being passed from father to child because of Adam's sin. This sounded a little odd to me and the verses that he quoted didn't really proof anything. Has anyone else heard of this?

--hide--


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Immaculate Conception

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.


Mary's virginity

496 From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived "by the Holy Spirit without human seed".146 The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:

You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen.147

497 The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The Church sees here the fulfillment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."150

Mary - "ever-virgin"

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156

500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary".158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159

501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love."


www.vatican.va
01/06/2013 new

(Quote) Renee-44830 said: I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor menti...
(Quote) Renee-44830 said:

I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor mentioned something about "sin nature" being passed from father to child because of Adam's sin. This sounded a little odd to me and the verses that he quoted didn't really proof anything. Has anyone else heard of this?

--hide--


I agree with Victor...best to stay as far away from protestant "bible" studies, etc. as you can.

That said, original sin is passed by propagation from Adam to all his progeny. Fortunately, due to the authority given the institution of the Church of Christ on earth, which is the Catholic Church, we do not have to puzzle on the Scriptures. The Church lays the meaning bare for us.

The Council of Trent decreed on original sin in its Fifth Session:

"That our Catholic faith, without which it is impossible to please God, may, errors being purged away, continue in its own perfect and spotless integrity, and that the Christian people may not be carried about with every wind of doctrine; whereas that old serpent, the perpetual enemy of mankind, amongst the very many evils with which the Church of God is in these our times troubled, has also stirred up not only new, but even old, dissensions touching original sin, and the remedy thereof; the Sacred and Holy, Oecumenical and General Synod of Trent, - lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the three same legates of the Apostolic See presiding therein, - wishing now to come to the reclaiming of the erring, and the confirming of the wavering, - following the testimonies of the Sacred Scriptures, of the Holy Fathers, of the most approved Councils, and the judgment and consent of the Church itself, ordains, confesses, and declares these things touching the said original sin:

"1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.

"2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema: - whereas he contradicts the Apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin, death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

"3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam, - which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, - is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one Mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath reconciled us to God in His own Blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the Sacrament of Baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Whence that voice; Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him Who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

"4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting, - whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of Baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, - let him be anathema. For that which the Apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin, death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a Tradition of the Apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in Baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only rased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by Baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven. But this Holy Synod confesses and is sensible, that in the baptized there remains concupiscence, or an incentive (to sin); which, whereas it is left for our exercise, cannot injure those who consent not, but resist manfully by the grace of Jesus Christ; yea, he who shall have striven lawfully shall be crowned. This concupiscence, which the Apostle sometimes calls sin, the Holy Synod declares that the Catholic Church has never understood it to be called sin, as being truly and properly sin in those born again, but because it is of sin, and inclines to sin.

"This same Holy Synod doth nevertheless declare, that it is not its intention to include in this decree, where original sin is treated of, the Blessed and Immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God; but that the constitutions of Pope Sixtus IV, of happy memory, are to be observed, under the pains contained in the said constitutions, which it renews."

01/06/2013 new
(Quote) Renee-44830 said: I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor mentioned something...
(Quote) Renee-44830 said:

I attended a protestant Bible study recently about proof of Mary's virginity. The pastor mentioned something about "sin nature" being passed from father to child because of Adam's sin. This sounded a little odd to me and the verses that he quoted didn't really proof anything. Has anyone else heard of this?

--hide--


Hi Renee and welcome to the forums. The subject of Mary tends to be one of the most difficult for our protestant brothers and sisters to understand. In addition to the references here, you may want to take a look at Scott Hahn's books on Mary. A convert to Catholicism, Scott has a beautiful and deep way of explaining Mary. Just as an aside, Scott's departure from Evangelical Protestantism was quite a shock. He was a very big proponent of Sola Scriptura until he realized that sola scriptura wasn't scriptural. He started reading the Early Church Fathers, many of who sat at the feet of the apostles. I highly recommend any book on the Fathers.

Also keep in mind that they also do not understand the concept of authority that we as Catholics believe.

Take this as an opportunity to learn about your Catholic Faith, so when those issues arise, you can gently point out why we believe as we do.
01/06/2013 new

(Quote) Victor-544727 said: The Protestant angle on "sin nature" is what we know as Original Sin, which we are abs...
(Quote) Victor-544727 said:

The Protestant angle on "sin nature" is what we know as Original Sin, which we are absolved of at our baptism. However, our Blessed Mother was conceived free from Original Sin. We celebrate Her conception every year on December 8th, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.


Many Protestants reject the Catholic teachings of our Blessed Mother as well as many other things. That's why they're Protestants.


The best thing you can do is to keep as much distance between yourself and these groups as possible. You won't convert them, especially when converting you is often their intent.

--hide--

One of the problems with a lot of Protestant teachings on Mary is that what they believe today has absolutely nothing to do with what the "reformers" they do follow believed. For example, Luther as well as Calvin both had a profound and deep devotion to Our Lady and taught lessons about her which were and are very Catholic.

Yet, it would be very difficult to find a Lutheran or Calvinist today who even knows what their originators believed and taught.

01/09/2013 new

(Quote) Victor-544727 said: The best thing you can do is to keep as much distance between yourself and these groups as poss...
(Quote) Victor-544727 said:

The best thing you can do is to keep as much distance between yourself and these groups as possible. You won't convert them, especially when converting you is often their intent.

--hide--


I would encourage a certain degree of caution when interacting with Protestants, but I wouldn't go so far as to say keep as much distance as possible. I left the Catholic church for a period of time and attended a Baptist church. After my divorce, I felt the Spirit calling me back "home" to my Catholic faith. While there are many things I learned the protestant faith does poorly, there are many things they do right. Just like there are many things the Catholic faith does poorly, there are many things it does right.

You won't convert them? I know many protestants who have converted to Catholocism because of good Catholic witnesses. Just like I know many Catholics who have left the Catholic church to become protestant.

The bottom line: I think if both groups paid more attention to loving their neighbor as themselves and judging not lest they be judged, our sinful morally depraved society wouldn't be as likely to look on Christians (protestant or Catholic) as narrow minded, pompous, judgemental, hippocrates.

Satan has a field day when it comes to Christians judging and attacking one another. I think we Christians do more harm to the name and will of God than any atheiest. Please pray for church unity. Let Christ come in glory and be the judge. Until then, love one another.

02/04/2013 new

Victor-544727 is 100% right ! Stay away, they're objective is to ultimately convert you. I've had many run-ins with protestants, some friends. Thankfully, they quickly learned that I'm not one to back down easily. Stick to Catholic groups and you should be fine.

02/04/2013 new

Find a Catholic study group as others have said. Protestanism is grave error and is based on Heresy, it can never answer your questions.

What we know as the Bible didn't exist until 397AD, before then they used various books and relied heavily on Sacred Tradition, there are screeds of letters between parishes and early Christian leaders asking their bishops how can they tell if one group is Christian, and is teaching truth? And the usual answer was "because they do what we do and can trace back to Peter".

Protestanism, for the most part, has denied Sacred Tradition, and without ST they cannot interpret scripture correctly, by denying the authority of teh Catholic Church they cannot interpret scripture correctly.

THink of the Pope as a referree for a game of your choice. Without a ref. the game descends into madness and confusion, someone has to be there to interpret the rules and impliment them.

Without ST, without Papal Infalibity, our Protestant brothers and sisters will never have the fullness of Truth, and that includes the Truth about Mary. sad

That was a little off track, but yeah, find a Catholic group, don't confuse yourself with Protestant theology, there's 48,000 different Prot. denominations, and all of them have different teachings to the next, that's why you'll come up against some really weird stuff, like what this pastor is spouting.

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