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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Dec 31st 2012 new

(Quote) Lisa-727959 said: arousal between a husband and wife is not bad, sinful, or inappropriate even if they are using NFP...
(Quote) Lisa-727959 said:

arousal between a husband and wife is not bad, sinful, or inappropriate even if they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy for valid reasons. A husband and wife should only abstain from physical arousal if they agree that they cannot avoid intercourse on fertile days while trying to avoid pregnancy. Otherwise, kissing and other forms of affection are completely appropriate during this time for a married couple.

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Very well said, Lisa. I do have two comments:

> arousal between a husband and wife is not bad, sinful, or inappropriate

Except where the arousal is lustful, which is always a sin (CCC 2351), even within marriage.

> A husband and wife should only abstain from physical arousal if they agree that they cannot avoid intercourse on fertile days while trying to avoid pregnancy.

I'm confused by this statement. Did you perhaps mean "... agree they must avoid intercourse..."? (If they agree they cannot avoid intercourse on fertile days, it would seem they're not going to be too successful at avoiding pregnancy and there is no need to avoid arousal...)

If the couple has agreed to avoid intercourse, in most cases a limited amount of affection is possible without leading to arousal. Once they reach the point of arousal the situation is morally problematic because of the near occasion of grave sin (masturbation). At that point it would seem they need to either agree to forgo the abstinence or curtail the affection.

Rachel -- I apologize for not responding to your questions. I started to reply a while back, got distracted by work, and it slipped my mind. Perhaps for the best because Lisa covered it very well -- and much better than I would have. I'll look again later today or tomorrow and see if there is anything I want to add.

Dec 31st 2012 new
(Quote) David-364112 said: Well Joe, go ahead and have a kid every 10 or 11 months just to prove what a good Catholic you are. You have o...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Well Joe, go ahead and have a kid every 10 or 11 months just to prove what a good Catholic you are. You have our blessing. Heaven help you, because you're gonna need it.

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David, I'm confused... are you advocating the use of condoms?
Dec 31st 2012 new

(Quote) Joe-660568 said: (Quote) David-364112 said: Well Joe, go ahead and have a kid every 10 or 11 months ...
(Quote) Joe-660568 said:
Quote:
David-364112 said:

Well Joe, go ahead and have a kid every 10 or 11 months just to prove what a good Catholic you are. You have our blessing. Heaven help you, because you're gonna need it.


David, I'm confused... are you advocating the use of condoms?
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As I read it, he was advocating NFP. I see no reference, or even allusion, to condoms.

Dec 31st 2012 new

(Quote) Joe-660568 said: David, I'm confused... are you advocating the use of condoms?
(Quote) Joe-660568 said: David, I'm confused... are you advocating the use of condoms?
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I am advocating NFP, properly used.


There's a certain subset of Catholics who feel that to be truly Catholic you need to have 14 kids and that anyone who does anything to space births is barely Catholic.

Dec 31st 2012 new

NFP is always open to the transmission of life. Apart from timing, nothing is being done to prevent conception. It is still an unhindered act of intercourse which could result in conception. Mutual self control and love-making that is completely self-giving and open to the transmission of life cannot be sinful. We're not bloodstock, the purpose of marriage is not merely to breed like barnyard animals.


If anything, NFP strengthens a marriage and deepens the couple's mutual respect/love because they plan and make decisions together; they abstain and enjoy each other together in a way that dignifies marriage and strengthens their love. what's wrong with that?

Jan 1st 2013 new

I understand your question with regards to Birth Control and NFP. When I was in nursing school we learned how to teach clients to use all kinds of BC. It struck me then, that it seems to me there isn't much difference theorectically about using the pill or NFP when a married couple is using it. W/ NFP you are very aware of your cycle, and avoid having sex on days you are ovulating. So one way uses a drug to stop ovulation, and one is a more time consuming process that causes a person to be more aware of their body and how to avoid having sex while ovulating(I'm not trying to mock NFP in anyway. Seriously). Yes, the pill has a 99% effectiveness while the NFP is about 85%. However , I feel that that 1% does give leave way for nature to take its course and obviously I am discussing this as a way clients can space children in a marriage. After the age of 35, I definitely could see myself as wanting to use NFP, because there are more risks in using the pill as one gets older. I think this is the one issue w/in the Catholic Church in which as much as I read, I cannot be compelled to abandon my way of thinking. Although I completely respect people who do use this and believe it is a valid form of BC.

Jan 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: (Quote) Joe-660568 said: David, I'm confused... are you advocating the use of...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Quote:
Joe-660568 said: David, I'm confused... are you advocating the use of condoms?


I am advocating NFP, properly used.


There's a certain subset of Catholics who feel that to be truly Catholic you need to have 14 kids and that anyone who does anything to space births is barely Catholic.

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Thanks for clarifying. After hearing the forum input of other people more knowledgable on this matter than myself, I have come to accept the fact that if you use NFP and try to have less children, God still has the ability to override your will and make more. I surely wouldn't want to starve any children just because I can't feed them all, but I realize that God will provide... and He knows the right number of children that I can shepherd over best.

Jan 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Joe-660568 said: Thanks for clarifying. After hearing the forum input of other people more knowledgable on this ...
(Quote) Joe-660568 said:


Thanks for clarifying. After hearing the forum input of other people more knowledgable on this matter than myself, I have come to accept the fact that if you use NFP and try to have less children, God still has the ability to override your will and make more. I surely wouldn't want to starve any children just because I can't feed them all, but I realize that God will provide... and He knows the right number of children that I can shepherd over best.

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right. god provides for every child. they are not that expensive to house, clothe, and feed.

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