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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Dec 30th 2012 new

As others have mentioned, they are relatively rare.

A few years ago, I wanted to go to an Eastern liturgy just to experience it. I was living in the Lafayette, Indiana area. Had to drive to the far sice of Indianapolis to find a parish. Something like an hour and a half, almost all of it on well-moving iterstate highway. As far as I know, it's the only Eastern parish in central Indiana.

Dec 30th 2012 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: As others have mentioned, they are relatively rare. A few years ago, I wanted to go to an Eastern...
(Quote) John-336509 said:

As others have mentioned, they are relatively rare.



A few years ago, I wanted to go to an Eastern liturgy just to experience it. I was living in the Lafayette, Indiana area. Had to drive to the far sice of Indianapolis to find a parish. Something like an hour and a half, almost all of it on well-moving iterstate highway. As far as I know, it's the only Eastern parish in central Indiana.

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>>Unless you live on the East Coast.
Jan 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: >>Unless you live on the East Coast.
(Quote) John-220051 said:

>>Unless you live on the East Coast.
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Most of the population of this country does not.

Jan 3rd 2013 new

I wish I knew, too! I am Ruthenian Byz and so few people realize that there are different Rites, let alone the INTENSE differences in theology! I recently discussed with another here, that in college, I went on retreat to learn about Roman Catholicism (I didn't know much) and make Catholic friends (I didn't have any) and I was so discriminated against, made fun of for not having a "saint name" or for knowing the rosary, or what adoration and the stations were, and I was repeatedly "accused" of being Orthodox. The priest would not even hear my confession.

Now, I take pride in my eastern traditions, and even occassionally attend the local Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox liturgy (no communion of course) because there are no Eastern Catholic churches around.

Ahh, but if only, if only there were. I wish I could have a Byzantine wedding someday heart but: not likely :/

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Mary-583970 said: I wish I knew, too! I am Ruthenian Byz and so few people realize that there are different Rites, l...
(Quote) Mary-583970 said:

I wish I knew, too! I am Ruthenian Byz and so few people realize that there are different Rites, let alone the INTENSE differences in theology! I recently discussed with another here, that in college, I went on retreat to learn about Roman Catholicism (I didn't know much) and make Catholic friends (I didn't have any) and I was so discriminated against, made fun of for not having a "saint name" or for knowing the rosary, or what adoration and the stations were, and I was repeatedly "accused" of being Orthodox. The priest would not even hear my confession.

Now, I take pride in my eastern traditions, and even occassionally attend the local Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox liturgy (no communion of course) because there are no Eastern Catholic churches around.

Ahh, but if only, if only there were. I wish I could have a Byzantine wedding someday but: not likely :/

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If Mary isn't a saint's name, I don't know what is!

Do the Rutherians not practice the rosary or stations of the cross as devotions? Or are they just things you personally had not encountered?

Perhaps you, John, and others with Eastern rite backgrounds could start some topics decribing some of the differences between the Eastern rites and the Roman rite in terms of tradition and theology? I'd be interested in learning more, and I'm sure there are others who would as well.

.

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: If Mary isn't a saint's name, I don't know what is! Do the Rutherians ...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

If Mary isn't a saint's name, I don't know what is!

Do the Rutherians not practice the rosary or stations of the cross as devotions? Or are they just things you personally had not encountered?

Perhaps you, John, and others with Eastern rite backgrounds could start some topics decribing some of the differences between the Eastern rites and the Roman rite in terms of tradition and theology? I'd be interested in learning more, and I'm sure there are others who would as well.

.

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No, Eastern Catholics do not practice the rosary, or stations or Eucharastic adoration. We do practice the chotki/Jesus prayer, in lieu of the rosary. Our Hail Mary is slightly different, and we also cross ourselves differently, and we also do not genuflect and receive communion as infants.

As for theology, so many things that then lead into ecclesiology! Married men are priests, we do not distinctly define venial vs. mortal sin, so confession is quite different (we usually have no confessionals, and confess to the priest at the altar) and typically only in times of "grave sin" (ie having essentially told God to get out of our lives, rather than sin by weakness of human nature- so we do confession maybe a few times a year), it could be said that Eastern Catholics/Christians do not believe in original sin- though this I am still researching- and thusly from that our idea of the immaculate conception is quite different. We believe what you would call "venial sins" are forgiven with the consumption of the Host. We do not have Advent, we do St. Philip's Fast, and our Lent is stricter and lasts longer. Here, this is one most Roman Catholics disagree with, but most Eastern Catholics do agree with: that the Western Catholic perogative is to not go to Hell, whereas the Eastern Catholic perogative is to go to Heaven. We do not consribe to the idea of "earning" salvation. This leads to varying methods of "adoration" and examination of conscience. We believe in the community of saints, but not in intercessory prayer (at least, not in the same manner). We do not have a patience for typical "Catholic guilt" and do not believe in such self-deprication as that I've seen in the stations of the cross....

And et cetera, ad nauseum! I can go on and on about any of these topics- most people would be sorry they asked, hahaha but if aybody would like to.... biggrin

I do wish there more Eastern Catholics sad especially so that I could have a Byzantine wedding; the Eastern Code of Canon Law (our version of the Catechism) states I must marry in my husband's church/rite....

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: Considering we are all one Church, why is it that Roman Catholics are so unaware that Eastern Catholics e...
(Quote) John-220051 said: Considering we are all one Church, why is it that Roman Catholics are so unaware that Eastern Catholics even exist?
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Once when I was at Epiphany of Our Lord Byzantine Catholic Church in Annandale, a woman asked the deacon if they were like Catholics. He replied, "Well actually we are Catholics". She seemed utterly baffled that could be correct.

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Steve-650539 said: Once when I was at Epiphany of Our Lord Byzantine Catholic Church in Annandale, a woman ...
(Quote) Steve-650539 said:

Once when I was at Epiphany of Our Lord Byzantine Catholic Church in Annandale, a woman asked the deacon if they were like Catholics. He replied, "Well actually we are Catholics". She seemed utterly baffled that could be correct.

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Ah, that is where I go to church, when I go! :DDD I typically take my RC Godson to church, since his parents are not Catholic....but when I get a hankerin' for it, I make my way up to Epiphany and see Fr. Basarab, he's a great guy, known me all my life laughing

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Mary-583970 said: No, Eastern Catholics do not practice the rosary, or stations or Eucharastic adoration. We do prac...
(Quote) Mary-583970 said:

No, Eastern Catholics do not practice the rosary, or stations or Eucharastic adoration. We do practice the chotki/Jesus prayer, in lieu of the rosary. Our Hail Mary is slightly different, and we also cross ourselves differently, and we also do not genuflect and receive communion as infants.

As for theology, so many things that then lead into ecclesiology! Married men are priests, we do not distinctly define venial vs. mortal sin, so confession is quite different (we usually have no confessionals, and confess to the priest at the altar) and typically only in times of "grave sin" (ie having essentially told God to get out of our lives, rather than sin by weakness of human nature- so we do confession maybe a few times a year), it could be said that Eastern Catholics/Christians do not believe in original sin- though this I am still researching- and thusly from that our idea of the immaculate conception is quite different. We believe what you would call "venial sins" are forgiven with the consumption of the Host. We do not have Advent, we do St. Philip's Fast, and our Lent is stricter and lasts longer. Here, this is one most Roman Catholics disagree with, but most Eastern Catholics do agree with: that the Western Catholic perogative is to not go to Hell, whereas the Eastern Catholic perogative is to go to Heaven. We do not consribe to the idea of "earning" salvation. This leads to varying methods of "adoration" and examination of conscience. We believe in the community of saints, but not in intercessory prayer (at least, not in the same manner). We do not have a patience for typical "Catholic guilt" and do not believe in such self-deprication as that I've seen in the stations of the cross....

And et cetera, ad nauseum! I can go on and on about any of these topics- most people would be sorry they asked, hahaha but if aybody would like to....

I do wish there more Eastern Catholics especially so that I could have a Byzantine wedding; the Eastern Code of Canon Law (our version of the Catechism) states I must marry in my husband's church/rite....

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Thanks, Mary. A few questions:

How does your Hail Mary differ? Is the difference in the sign of the cros just the order of the shoulders (right, then left)?

> we also do not genuflect and receive communion as infants.

Yes, I imagine it would be difficult for an infant to genuflect. (Just kidding... I know what you meant) Do infants receive communion on a regular basis, or do they receive the first time as an infant and then begin receiving regularly at an older age? If the latter, is there a typical age or some other criteria? What about confirmation?

What is St. Philip's fast? Do you have any type of preparation for Christmas? Do you celebrate Christmas on Jan. 6, or is that the Orthodox? What is your understanding of the Immaculate Conception?

We receive a general absolution at Mass before Communion that forgives venial sins.

The notion of earning salvation is not part of our faith either, though it seems to be a very common misunderstanding.

I'd be very surprised if you don't believe in original sin, as that seems to be very obvious from Scripture alone.

It may be your notion of grave sin is not all that different from our mortal sin. The terminology varies quite a bit, but one common convention is to use the term 'grave' to refer to sins that are objectively very serious and capable of being mortal; the term 'mortal' is used for grave acts that meet certain subjective requirements (knowledge and full consent of the will). [In informal usage, 'mortal' is often used to describe either subjectively or objectively grave sins; it can be a bit confusing, but the intent can often be determined from the context.] It sounds like our mortal sins (in the subjective sense) may be similar to your grave sins, since if one willfully commits a grave sin they are effectively telling God to get out of their lives (whether they explicitly think of it that way or not). Of course the devil is in the details....

What text do you use as a reference for your faith? Your Code of Canon Law would contain the disciplinary and perhaps liturgical aspects, but I wouldn't expect it to serve as a primary theological reference.

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-302787 said: With the exception of those of us who are from the Latin Church, nobody from the Maronite Catholi...
(Quote) Paul-302787 said:

With the exception of those of us who are from the Latin Church, nobody from the Maronite Catholic parish or the Byzantine Catholic mission I attend consider themselves "Roman" Catholics.
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In short, while the Easterns are Roman Catholics, they don't use the Roman liturgy, which is specific to the Latin church.

Confused yet?

The Roman Catholic Church is composed of 22 autonomous (sui juris) churches: the Latin church and 21 Eastern churches. Each of the Eastern churches has its own norms and traditions; however, they share a single code of law, the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches (CCEO).

Prior to the promulgation of the CCEO in 1990 the churches sui juris were referred to as 'rites'; the 1983 Latin code of canon law (CIC), which is the current code, uses both terms.

The term 'rite' is also used when referring to the liturgy and theology of a church. The previous dual usage of the term is no doubt largely responsible for the confusion regarding the terms 'Latin' and 'Roman', as the primary liturgy of the Latin church sui juris is known Roman rite liturgy. Another source of confusion may be the use of the term 'Roman' (not 'Roman Catholic') to refer to the Diocese of Rome, which, of course, is particular to the Latin church.

For those who are interested:

The primary liturgy of the Roman rite is what is now called the Ordinary Form (previously, Novus Ordo); there are two common variations: the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass or TLM) and the Anglican Use liturgy. Other Western rites are the Ambrosian Rite of Milan, the Mozarabic and Carthusian Rites, and the Rite of Braga.

The 21 Eastern churches use 5 liturgical rites:

Alexandrian rite (Coptic and Ethiopian churches)

Antiochene (West Syrian) rite (Malankar, Maronite, and Syrian churches)

Byzantine rite (Albanian, Byelorussian, Bulgarian, Greek, Italo-Albanian, Yugoslavian, Melkite, Romanian, Russian, Ruthenian, Slovakian, Ukranian, and Hungarian churches)

Chaldean (East Syrian) rite (Chaldean and Malabar churches)

Armenian rite (Armenian church)

[The list of churches using each rite is taken from the New Commentary on the Code of (Latin) Canon Law. The Wikipedia article on the Byzantine Rite (en.wikipedia.org ) has a slightly different list.]

For more details about the current and defunct Western liturgies, see en.wikipedia.org

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