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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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Jan 4th 2013 new

that is a really beautiful thing to say steve

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: That is what i have always been taught is the Church's position.
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

That is what i have always been taught is the Church's position.

--hide--


I've been taught the same: God, Spouse, family, job...

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Can you provide a source for this, please?
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Can you provide a source for this, please?

--hide--
Jerry, I do not believe that the CCC #1646, although essential for marital fidelity and the good of children whose parents are still married, makes a clear case for puttting the children's interests second in a subsequent marriage where one of the spouses is not an original parent. To use this part of the Catechism to justify a mother's or father's wish to start anew, to build a new bond in the hope that it will make things turn out better for step-children, is a misuse of the Catechism. Thus, I still believe that the Church has not yet made any statement which defends re-marriage (for people who wish to blend children from previous marriages) as a "valid good" for children of divorce, or by extension, annulment. Do I think people can succeed in re-marriage? Yes, but that's not what I am arguing in this forum.

In fact, CCC #1647 immediately following #1646 seems to focus on the original family unit, and not re-created unions by saying:

“Through the Sacrament of Matrimony the spouses are enabled to represent this fidelity and witness to it. Through the sacrament, the indissolubility of marriage receives a new and deeper meaning.”

Even if grace is evident in valid re-marriages, I don’t think the intention of the Catechism in any part pertaining to Matrimony makes reference to subordinating the needs of children to those of adults. In fact, it seems obvious that people desire to re-marry while fully knowing that the divorce rate is even higher the second time around. I do not support statements coming from this forum that are preceded by “The Church says go for it.” No, the Catechism was composed with marriage and family living in the ideal sense, and does not appear to make any such statements to the flock other than “If you have an annulment, you may get married again.” Beyond that, no one can come out and state that the Church either blesses or discourages couples to re-marry. I have tried to make this point clear without sharing train wreck stories to make people understand a very simple idea: you can get married, but make sure you look at the statistics and make sure you examine the “blending of children” problem before you make the move. All through Catholic writing, however, you will find statements urging people to “sacrifice” (in this case and in a most noble manner, for your kids) and “carry your cross and follow Jesus," which means I might have to sell my house, rent a one bedroom apartment to make new ends meet now that half of the household income is gone, and devote precious time and monies to doing activities with my children. Yes, get together with divorced friends and share in the cost of the meals and game tickets, and help each other in all ways. Kids are NOT screaming for me to get hitched again!

For those readers who think that I like to spoil the party, unless you’ve seen what I’ve seen, you cannot imagine how your spouse’s (or your own) remarriage can be harmful to the kids.

So, no, the Catechism doesn’t defend the argument that parents’ need to re-marry outweighs children’s need for stability and sacrifical love.

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-919560 said: Jerry, I do not believe that the CCC #1646, although essential for marital fidelity and the good of...
(Quote) Tom-919560 said:

Jerry, I do not believe that the CCC #1646, although essential for marital fidelity and the good of children whose parents are still married, makes a clear case for puttting the children's interests second in a subsequent marriage where one of the spouses is not an original parent. To use this part of the Catechism to justify a mother's or father's wish to start anew, to build a new bond in the hope that it will make things turn out better for step-children, is a misuse of the Catechism. Thus, I still believe that the Church has not yet made any statement which defends re-marriage (for people who wish to blend children from previous marriages) as a "valid good" for children of divorce, or by extension, annulment. Do I think people can succeed in re-marriage? Yes, but that's not what I am arguing in this forum.

In fact, CCC #1647 immediately following #1646 seems to focus on the original family unit, and not re-created unions by saying:

“Through the Sacrament of Matrimony the spouses are enabled to represent this fidelity and witness to it. Through the sacrament, the indissolubility of marriage receives a new and deeper meaning.”

Even if grace is evident in valid re-marriages, I don’t think the intention of the Catechism in any part pertaining to Matrimony makes reference to subordinating the needs of children to those of adults. In fact, it seems obvious that people desire to re-marry while fully knowing that the divorce rate is even higher the second time around. I do not support statements coming from this forum that are preceded by “The Church says go for it.” No, the Catechism was composed with marriage and family living in the ideal sense, and does not appear to make any such statements to the flock other than “If you have an annulment, you may get married again.” Beyond that, no one can come out and state that the Church either blesses or discourages couples to re-marry. I have tried to make this point clear without sharing train wreck stories to make people understand a very simple idea: you can get married, but make sure you look at the statistics and make sure you examine the “blending of children” problem before you make the move. All through Catholic writing, however, you will find statements urging people to “sacrifice” (in this case and in a most noble manner, for your kids) and “carry your cross and follow Jesus," which means I might have to sell my house, rent a one bedroom apartment to make new ends meet now that half of the household income is gone, and devote precious time and monies to doing activities with my children. Yes, get together with divorced friends and share in the cost of the meals and game tickets, and help each other in all ways. Kids are NOT screaming for me to get hitched again!

For those readers who think that I like to spoil the party, unless you’ve seen what I’ve seen, you cannot imagine how your spouse’s (or your own) remarriage can be harmful to the kids.

So, no, the Catechism doesn’t defend the argument that parents’ need to re-marry outweighs children’s need for stability and sacrifical love.

--hide--

Tom I have someone working on a lengthy source document for you and may even get a second tomorrow. Please be patient.

I also adhere to my previous opinion that while you might share your story as cautionary tale, that you can not condem all because of your hurt. I know of many great holy families where the exact opposite is true. Once again your writing implies that you seem to be extremely hurt by this and I suggest speaking to someone to work through this. Don't hold on to that pain.

I was taught that this was the Churhc position not just since my annulment but during my Theology classes at Fraanciscan University and I know for a fact that my professors were faithful to the magisterium and would not make that assertion without knowlege that this was indeed truth. What you might want to ask yourself is, when Shara provides this proof to me that the Church advocates this, how does this affect me and my faith and my view of the Church? Depending on that answer you may need to speak to your priest or someone you trust to work through that burden.

It is not healthy to carry all of that hurt around. It can eat you up from the inside out and you may not even realize it. Not every one is you or your wife. I know you have gone through a lot and I am truly praying for you. No one should have to live with that depth of pain. You are obviously also a sensitive and caring man who feels things deeply and cares for those around him. Don't loose that. theheart rosary Praying

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-919560 said: Jerry, I do not believe that the CCC #1646, although essential for marital fidelity and the good of...
(Quote) Tom-919560 said:

Jerry, I do not believe that the CCC #1646, although essential for marital fidelity and the good of children whose parents are still married, makes a clear case for puttting the children's interests second in a subsequent marriage where one of the spouses is not an original parent. To use this part of the Catechism to justify a mother's or father's wish to start anew, to build a new bond in the hope that it will make things turn out better for step-children, is a misuse of the Catechism. Thus, I still believe that the Church has not yet made any statement which defends re-marriage (for people who wish to blend children from previous marriages) as a "valid good" for children of divorce, or by extension, annulment. Do I think people can succeed in re-marriage? Yes, but that's not what I am arguing in this forum.

In fact, CCC #1647 immediately following #1646 seems to focus on the original family unit, and not re-created unions by saying:

“Through the Sacrament of Matrimony the spouses are enabled to represent this fidelity and witness to it. Through the sacrament, the indissolubility of marriage receives a new and deeper meaning.”

Even if grace is evident in valid re-marriages, I don’t think the intention of the Catechism in any part pertaining to Matrimony makes reference to subordinating the needs of children to those of adults. In fact, it seems obvious that people desire to re-marry while fully knowing that the divorce rate is even higher the second time around. I do not support statements coming from this forum that are preceded by “The Church says go for it.” No, the Catechism was composed with marriage and family living in the ideal sense, and does not appear to make any such statements to the flock other than “If you have an annulment, you may get married again.” Beyond that, no one can come out and state that the Church either blesses or discourages couples to re-marry. I have tried to make this point clear without sharing train wreck stories to make people understand a very simple idea: you can get married, but make sure you look at the statistics and make sure you examine the “blending of children” problem before you make the move. All through Catholic writing, however, you will find statements urging people to “sacrifice” (in this case and in a most noble manner, for your kids) and “carry your cross and follow Jesus," which means I might have to sell my house, rent a one bedroom apartment to make new ends meet now that half of the household income is gone, and devote precious time and monies to doing activities with my children. Yes, get together with divorced friends and share in the cost of the meals and game tickets, and help each other in all ways. Kids are NOT screaming for me to get hitched again!

For those readers who think that I like to spoil the party, unless you’ve seen what I’ve seen, you cannot imagine how your spouse’s (or your own) remarriage can be harmful to the kids.

So, no, the Catechism doesn’t defend the argument that parents’ need to re-marry outweighs children’s need for stability and sacrifical love.

--hide--

Tom I have someone working on a lengthy source document for you and may even get a second tomorrow. Please be patient.

I also adhere to my previous opinion that while you might share your story as cautionary tale, that you can not condem all because of your hurt. I know of many great holy families where the exact opposite is true. Once again your writing implies that you seem to be extremely hurt by this and I suggest speaking to someone to work through this. Don't hold on to that pain.

I was taught that this was the Churhc position not just since my annulment but during my Theology classes at Fraanciscan University and I know for a fact that my professors were faithful to the magisterium and would not make that assertion without knowlege that this was indeed truth. What you might want to ask yourself is, when Shara provides this proof to me that the Church advocates this, how does this affect me and my faith and my view of the Church? Depending on that answer you may need to speak to your priest or someone you trust to work through that burden.

It is not healthy to carry all of that hurt around. It can eat you up from the inside out and you may not even realize it. Not every one is you or your wife. I know you have gone through a lot and I am truly praying for you. No one should have to live with that depth of pain. You are obviously also a sensitive and caring man who feels things deeply and cares for those around him. Don't loose that. theheart rosary Praying

Jan 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: Tom I have someone working on a lengthy source document for you and may even get a secon...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

Tom I have someone working on a lengthy source document for you and may even get a second tomorrow. Please be patient.

I also adhere to my previous opinion that while you might share your story as cautionary tale, that you can not condem all because of your hurt. I know of many great holy families where the exact opposite is true. Once again your writing implies that you seem to be extremely hurt by this and I suggest speaking to someone to work through this. Don't hold on to that pain.

I was taught that this was the Churhc position not just since my annulment but during my Theology classes at Fraanciscan University and I know for a fact that my professors were faithful to the magisterium and would not make that assertion without knowlege that this was indeed truth. What you might want to ask yourself is, when Shara provides this proof to me that the Church advocates this, how does this affect me and my faith and my view of the Church? Depending on that answer you may need to speak to your priest or someone you trust to work through that burden.

It is not healthy to carry all of that hurt around. It can eat you up from the inside out and you may not even realize it. Not every one is you or your wife. I know you have gone through a lot and I am truly praying for you. No one should have to live with that depth of pain. You are obviously also a sensitive and caring man who feels things deeply and cares for those around him. Don't loose that.

--hide--

Please note that Kathy in her post said that he parish priest shared that this was the Church's position for the feast of the Holy Family. I copied and pasted her post below.


Hi Jerry, the mass last Sunday was about family. Father Dahner had an excellent sermon. Anyway, I always put my kids before anything, but after listening to the sermon, it made so much sense. Without a strong husband and wife team to hold the family together, there becomes many problems. So in his sermon husband and wife come first, of course after God, and then the children. It makes total sense!

Please note that this is not the position on re-marriage but on marriage in general. The ideal is to never have to remarry. Unfortunately some of us, like me, make mistakes and fall short of God's ultimate plan. Thankfully his grace is enough to provide for both us and our kids.

Once again I challenge you to ask yourself what now when I provide you with documentation. Please know that no one is saying that the documentation invalidates your negative experience. Not at all as that would be plainly unjust. You and your family were deeply hurt and you did not deserve that. What it is saying is your story is not how everyone's story works out. Just like the positive storiesthat I know are not how everyone's story turns out. I am simply saying that with God's grace, prayer, discernment, caution and direction it is possible.

Love, prayers and support.

Jan 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: Please note that Kathy in her post said that he parish priest shared that this was the C...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

Please note that Kathy in her post said that he parish priest shared that this was the Church's position for the feast of the Holy Family. I copied and pasted her post below.


Hi Jerry, the mass last Sunday was about family. Father Dahner had an excellent sermon. Anyway, I always put my kids before anything, but after listening to the sermon, it made so much sense. Without a strong husband and wife team to hold the family together, there becomes many problems. So in his sermon husband and wife come first, of course after God, and then the children. It makes total sense!

Please note that this is not the position on re-marriage but on marriage in general. The ideal is to never have to remarry. Unfortunately some of us, like me, make mistakes and fall short of God's ultimate plan. Thankfully his grace is enough to provide for both us and our kids.

Once again I challenge you to ask yourself what now when I provide you with documentation. Please know that no one is saying that the documentation invalidates your negative experience. Not at all as that would be plainly unjust. You and your family were deeply hurt and you did not deserve that. What it is saying is your story is not how everyone's story works out. Just like the positive storiesthat I know are not how everyone's story turns out. I am simply saying that with God's grace, prayer, discernment, caution and direction it is possible.

Love, prayers and support.

--hide--
Thanks for the supportive tone, but I'm not condemning anyone who wishes to get remarried. I am simply stating that all the arguments henceforth supporting marriage are referring to the first marriage. Do I think the people who wrote the CCC or the Documents of Vatican II , or any Papal Encyclical would be lumping in second marriages when they are clearly, to me, speaking about God's plan for us to get it right the first time? I don't think the writings encompass second marriages, and the pastor's commentary--while very beautiful--do not necessarily speak of second marriages, but rather, God's plan for us to get marriage right SO THAT children need not suffer. Nothing new here, Shara, but the problem is THE KIDS HAVE SUFFERED ONCE MOM AND DAD GET DIVORCED, so the question now becomes "what can be done to limit the damage?" Your response to this is a little different than mine, and you accused me earlier of not being catechetically sound and of being apostate to Mother Church. While I think you have backed off on both claims, I sensed that my initial post, which urged more forethought before mixing families, was taken as a threat to your belief and your hope for a new life with a good man. You further complicated the issue by making claims then and now that Church writing seems to encourage re-marriage; but I know our Church a little better than that and I know it has always been very clear-headed and rational in its thinking, so much that I can't tolerate reading much of anything else except that which the Church teaches me about our existence. Hence, when I hear the claims that the Church would say "Full speed ahead" I know that She thinks much more critically than to say such a thing. She must teach us in Her wonderfully analytical way exactly how to navigate the waters. I thought my unselfish subordination of feminine companionship via remarriage nine years ago was exactly what Jesus would say to me; he still allows me the opportunity to ride off into the sunset with my bride a few years henceforth once my kids are completely on their own and I've taken care of business with the diocesean marriage tribunal...if that in fact goes my way. If not, I'm not going Protestant.

I respect the folks at Franciscan U and will be happy to read what they've come up with, specifically on this question: What does the Church say about the effects of re-marriages upon children in blended families?

Jan 5th 2013 new

Lastly, you keep referencing my "pain" with my ability to think clearly, or somehow that my "pain" has caused me to make statements that are not true.

What is pain?

Pain teaches and makes us sharper if it is not used to burst other peoples' pleasure, and my "pain" is to help people see that there is need for caution. Your contribution has been very touching about the positive power of Jesus in curing all our heartaches and that his disciples can have a second chance, and children can come out of divorce being happy.

But life is not so simple, and not everyone playing the game plays by the same rules, and thus, there is pain.

God is the truth--all good and all loving.

Jan 5th 2013 new

Hi Tom,

I went the same route you did.I just couldn't get married while my daughters were so young.One and two years old at time of separation,divorce,annulment.Now they are 17 and 18 with black belts in Karate.Much better scenario.Lol!Now is my time,except I need to help them through College.I am glad I waited till now to get serious about getting married.

Jan 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: I am going to try to explain the other side of this scenario. I haven't read all the replies,...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:

I am going to try to explain the other side of this scenario. I haven't read all the replies, so excuse me if I repeat what's already been said. For a man or a woman to not put their children first before dating, would be an injustice and likely be viewed as neglect. Our children, like our spouses, are precious gifts from God. They are entrusted to our care. When thrown in the midst of death or divorce, their world has already been shaken and scattered. As their parent, we do what we can to restore their faith, their hope and their security. To ignore their feelings, again would negate any recovery they may have began. They don't express grief as an adult. They need time to process. While we can't let them rule our households or set the groundwork for our new relationships, we definitely have to work with them and their feelings. I'm speaking of those children that still live at home. If I would, for example, date a man and allow him to discipline or set the rules for my kids, I would most certainly face rebellion. Like a fine wine, a relationship needs time to mature, maybe longer when our kids are concerned. By the time I were to walk down the aisle, I would hope that my husband would have shown enough sensitivity to allow the progression of trust. Teens especially don't just turn over the reins to the first guy that comes along. They may have misguided views about their roles in the family and see themselves as protector. Each situation, each child, each dynamic will be different. For the man that has the patience and perserverance to work through the process, the rewards will be great. You will be given the respect you deserve to lead and guide your new family.

Boys and girls need strong male role models on their lives. They don't need czars.

--hide--


Hi Kathy! I agree with you...when people are dating...of course the kids still come first. When engagement happens that is transition. When a marriage happens, that is the new foundation. The kids should be learning/knowing their place and why...during this process.
Mom and Dad, even if it is a step or foster parents are the foundation...not any old date that comes and goes for a few weekends....that was not the point of the post.

Children should know they are loved. When they have that unconditional love, they won't question they parental unit... as much. There will probably be turf wars and battles...parents should not give into these power struggles. It is not good for thier husband/wife relationship and it is not a good example to the children. Just my thoughts....I have never been a parent mind you:o)

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