(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:
Really? So Mary and Joseph were never married? Or do they get some sort of exception?...
(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:
Really? So Mary and Joseph were never married? Or do they get some sort of exception? How abiout when you get old and become impotent? Is that grounds for annulment? Gee, suppose I get married at 22 and have prostrate cancer as 23. Do I get an annulment at 24? I am pretty sure Mary and Joseph were married and despite the Church's long standing position on Mary's virginity I have never heard that they were not married for any reason. I have a friend that was married to a man that could not have an erection because he had a childhood illness. They were married for 26 years, until he died. And yep, they had a kid. Nice kid, too. To be a bit more specific, do you get an annulment because on your wedding night you can't have sex? Maybe you got to drunk at your wedding, maybe your wife got too drunk. Who cares. But how long to you wait? A week? A month? 5 years? Forever?
Suppose I get married at 22, and my wife cheats on me at 23. Do I get an annulment at 24? My option. Are you sure the same doesn't apply to impotency?
I read the same Catechism you do. I know it says you cannot marry if you are impotent. That is a pretty good idea too. I think the way it works is that you get married in public. The fact you are married is public knowledge. If you are a typical Catholic you do not have sex in public. If, when, how and where you have sex is not public knowledge and has never been. Should a couple choose to anul a marriage, they certainly can on the grounds of impotency, but it is optional. They can choose to remain as husband and wife as well and they are married in the eyes of the Church. Getting married, on the other hand is not optional. So is having sex in private, especially if you are older, at least I hope it is. You do not have to have sex to be married in the Church.
Thank you, Lawrence. You have given me the opportunity to expound on this subject in which there seems to be much confusion .
You are correct. Mary and Joseph did not create a marital union between themselves. How could they? A woman can only have one husband and she accepted God the Father's proposal and became His wife. God the Father conceived a child with Mary, his spouse. So, consummation took place between them, though Mary remained a virgin. To understand this, let us examine sexual union between husband and wife. During his orgasm, a husband delivers his physical, emotional, and spiritual essence of all that he is to his wife in service of his wife to achieve true union with her. But union is not complete until the woman responds with her own gift of self in orgasm. (It is my belief that a woman incapable of having an orgasm is, in this description, impotent for the purpose of consummating the union.). A man's genitial is external to his body. By nature, he is the aggressor, the one who primarily deals with world about him to create things or structures to protect and provide for his family, etc. He carries within him the seeds of life to procreate. A woman's genitial are internal. By nature, she strives to protect herself physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually from invasion by others. In marriage she gives almost unconditional permission to her husband to physically penetrate her. But this not enough. He must prepare his wife to receive him through love, tenderness, and pleasure. In her orgasm, every aspect of her being is willingly opened and eager to receive all that he has to give. She likewise gives the total gift of self during orgasm. But the woman does not gift her physical essence, but willingly accepts his physical essence to intertwine with her own. If God is willing, new life is created. But either way, a true marital union is formed which images the Trinitarian Union of God.
Now many people maintain that Christ was formed purely through Mary's DNA. But through science, we now have more in depth knowledge of how conception takes place, which in turn increases our understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation. First, women do not have the chromosome necessary to produce a male child. (Forgive me, I do not remember if its the X or the Y chromosome.) Now, I've heard that its possible for a woman to have this chromosome, but that is an anomaly and Mary was created to be the most perfect woman in all creation. So, obviously, God had to do something about this. Secondly, I do not believe it is logical for God to conceive His only begotten Son using only Mary's DNA. The Christ was to be unique in all ways. Since God is The Almighty, I believe He created His physical contribution of DNA right inside of the chosen ova within Mary. So in this way God the Father consummated this union with Mary. If someone wants to object that Mary could not have responded with her own orgasmic gift of self, I would have to say, So What? The orgasm is merely a tool to facilitate the intimate gift of our total selves to our spouse; and it marks in our hearts and minds that this truly majestic event has occurred. The orgasm facilitates the emotional, spiritual, mental, and physical joy we experience in creating and reaffirming this union that images God Himself. Furthermore, if an angel stood before you in conversation with you, and the Holy Spirit descended on you, and you possessed within your body The Son of God, you would surely experience an unimaginable joy never experienced by any man or woman throughout history.
Mary and Joseph were married according to society's rituals, obviously, to avoid giving scandal to others. The church teaches us that the Sacrament of Matrimony was never conferred on a couple by a priest. It is the couple themselves that administers the Sacrament on each other. Mary and Joseph had no intention of living as man and wife. There are other couples in history who have chosen to be "married" externally without any intention of having sex. They are not truly married, but with commitment to this lifestyle they can find peace and contentment.
Annulments are not about human failings after the marriage, but all about whether or not the marriage was valid at its inception.
It only takes one sexual union to consummate the marriage. If for whatever reason, no more sex can take place within that marriage, it does not, in any way, invalidate the union.