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Devoted to discussion pertaining to those issues which are specifically relevant to people 45+. Topics must have a specific perspective of people in this age group for it to be on topic.

The story of Abraham and Sarah is told in chapters 11-25 of the book of Genesis.
Learn More:Abraham & Sarah

02/11/2013 new

(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: If the purpose of a Catholic marriage, as a unique union between man and woman, is for the propag...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:

If the purpose of a Catholic marriage, as a unique union between man and woman, is for the propagation of the human family and the upbringing of children, ...

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Your definition is incomplete. Marriage has as its other purpose the mutual good of both parties.


"Unitive AND procreative".

02/12/2013 new

I am not good at quoting.

For transparency, I am an OB/GYN.


I would believe that marriage when one knows they cannot physically become pregnant and bear children would be acceptable. Marriage is about loving and caring for another person as God loves us. The acceptance of children if sent to us by God is a part of our beliefs, but it is only a part of the powerful love that it takes to make a marriage. There are so many things that affect the sexual relationship between a couple. We are seeing men and women who survive cancer and lose their fertility, women with hysterectomies (although rare in the childbearing years), etc. To me, the love God has for us would mean that even in the absence of biological children that when God asks us to take a child into our lives (choosing adoption, death of a family member, or other venue), that we do so with open arms.

Mary

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Mary-943298 said: I am not good at quoting.For transparency, I am an OB/GYN.I would believe that...
(Quote) Mary-943298 said:

I am not good at quoting.

For transparency, I am an OB/GYN.


I would believe that marriage when one knows they cannot physically become pregnant and bear children would be acceptable. Marriage is about loving and caring for another person as God loves us. The acceptance of children if sent to us by God is a part of our beliefs, but it is only a part of the powerful love that it takes to make a marriage. There are so many things that affect the sexual relationship between a couple. We are seeing men and women who survive cancer and lose their fertility, women with hysterectomies (although rare in the childbearing years), etc. To me, the love God has for us would mean that even in the absence of biological children that when God asks us to take a child into our lives (choosing adoption, death of a family member, or other venue), that we do so with open arms.

Mary

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Hi, Mary

Quoting is easy. Simply click on "Reply & Quote". Don't worry about reducing the quote, the system takes care of that. However, be sure to start your reply after the "/quote" symbol.

As you and most of us know, there is a big difference between impotency and sterility. Contrary to popular misunderstanding, the primary purpose of marriage is NOT propagation, nor is it propagation and unitive. Using these terms alone, then the primary purpose is unitive. However I think that is a sparse expression of the marital union. Though we are each made in the image of God, the fullness of that image is lacking until we give ourselves totally to our spouse in marriage. The marital union images the Trinitarian union between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this way, we become more fully the true image of God. Not having children does not in any way diminish this union. However, not being open to having children does diminish this union to the point, I believe, of invalidating the union. Simply put, if one withholds his/her procreative capabilities from their spouse and God's plan for them, then they have not really given the gift of total self to their spouse.


However if you are impotent, you cannot marry. To answer Lawerence's question of How can we know that we can't have sex unless we are having sex?: Are you serious? Its really quite simple. There are two parts to receiving Matrimony. One is in church and the other is in the bed. Without consummation, there is simply no marriage. In this case, it is really simple to get a declaration of nullity.


theheart


02/15/2013 new

(Quote) John-857142 said: To answer Lawerence's question of How can we know that we can&#...
(Quote) John-857142 said:

To answer Lawerence's question of How can we know that we can't have sex unless we are having sex?: Are you serious? Its really quite simple. There are two parts to receiving Matrimony.

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Really? So Mary and Joseph were never married? Or do they get some sort of exception? How abiout when you get old and become impotent? Is that grounds for annulment? Gee, suppose I get married at 22 and have prostrate cancer as 23. Do I get an annulment at 24? I am pretty sure Mary and Joseph were married and despite the Church's long standing position on Mary's virginity I have never heard that they were not married for any reason. I have a friend that was married to a man that could not have an erection because he had a childhood illness. They were married for 26 years, until he died. And yep, they had a kid. Nice kid, too. To be a bit more specific, do you get an annulment because on your wedding night you can't have sex? Maybe you got to drunk at your wedding, maybe your wife got too drunk. Who cares. But how long to you wait? A week? A month? 5 years? Forever?

Suppose I get married at 22, and my wife cheats on me at 23. Do I get an annulment at 24? My option. Are you sure the same doesn't apply to impotency?

I read the same Catechism you do. I know it says you cannot marry if you are impotent. That is a pretty good idea too. I think the way it works is that you get married in public. The fact you are married is public knowledge. If you are a typical Catholic you do not have sex in public. If, when, how and where you have sex is not public knowledge and has never been. Should a couple choose to anul a marriage, they certainly can on the grounds of impotency, but it is optional. They can choose to remain as husband and wife as well and they are married in the eyes of the Church. Getting married, on the other hand is not optional. So is having sex in private, especially if you are older, at least I hope it is. You do not have to have sex to be married in the Church.

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said: Really? So Mary and Joseph were never married? Or do they get some sort of exception?...
(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:

Really? So Mary and Joseph were never married? Or do they get some sort of exception? How abiout when you get old and become impotent? Is that grounds for annulment? Gee, suppose I get married at 22 and have prostrate cancer as 23. Do I get an annulment at 24? I am pretty sure Mary and Joseph were married and despite the Church's long standing position on Mary's virginity I have never heard that they were not married for any reason. I have a friend that was married to a man that could not have an erection because he had a childhood illness. They were married for 26 years, until he died. And yep, they had a kid. Nice kid, too. To be a bit more specific, do you get an annulment because on your wedding night you can't have sex? Maybe you got to drunk at your wedding, maybe your wife got too drunk. Who cares. But how long to you wait? A week? A month? 5 years? Forever?

Suppose I get married at 22, and my wife cheats on me at 23. Do I get an annulment at 24? My option. Are you sure the same doesn't apply to impotency?

I read the same Catechism you do. I know it says you cannot marry if you are impotent. That is a pretty good idea too. I think the way it works is that you get married in public. The fact you are married is public knowledge. If you are a typical Catholic you do not have sex in public. If, when, how and where you have sex is not public knowledge and has never been. Should a couple choose to anul a marriage, they certainly can on the grounds of impotency, but it is optional. They can choose to remain as husband and wife as well and they are married in the eyes of the Church. Getting married, on the other hand is not optional. So is having sex in private, especially if you are older, at least I hope it is. You do not have to have sex to be married in the Church.

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Thank you, Lawrence. You have given me the opportunity to expound on this subject in which there seems to be much confusion .

You are correct. Mary and Joseph did not create a marital union between themselves. How could they? A woman can only have one husband and she accepted God the Father's proposal and became His wife. God the Father conceived a child with Mary, his spouse. So, consummation took place between them, though Mary remained a virgin. To understand this, let us examine sexual union between husband and wife. During his orgasm, a husband delivers his physical, emotional, and spiritual essence of all that he is to his wife in service of his wife to achieve true union with her. But union is not complete until the woman responds with her own gift of self in orgasm. (It is my belief that a woman incapable of having an orgasm is, in this description, impotent for the purpose of consummating the union.). A man's genitial is external to his body. By nature, he is the aggressor, the one who primarily deals with world about him to create things or structures to protect and provide for his family, etc. He carries within him the seeds of life to procreate. A woman's genitial are internal. By nature, she strives to protect herself physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually from invasion by others. In marriage she gives almost unconditional permission to her husband to physically penetrate her. But this not enough. He must prepare his wife to receive him through love, tenderness, and pleasure. In her orgasm, every aspect of her being is willingly opened and eager to receive all that he has to give. She likewise gives the total gift of self during orgasm. But the woman does not gift her physical essence, but willingly accepts his physical essence to intertwine with her own. If God is willing, new life is created. But either way, a true marital union is formed which images the Trinitarian Union of God.

Now many people maintain that Christ was formed purely through Mary's DNA. But through science, we now have more in depth knowledge of how conception takes place, which in turn increases our understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation. First, women do not have the chromosome necessary to produce a male child. (Forgive me, I do not remember if its the X or the Y chromosome.) Now, I've heard that its possible for a woman to have this chromosome, but that is an anomaly and Mary was created to be the most perfect woman in all creation. So, obviously, God had to do something about this. Secondly, I do not believe it is logical for God to conceive His only begotten Son using only Mary's DNA. The Christ was to be unique in all ways. Since God is The Almighty, I believe He created His physical contribution of DNA right inside of the chosen ova within Mary. So in this way God the Father consummated this union with Mary. If someone wants to object that Mary could not have responded with her own orgasmic gift of self, I would have to say, So What? The orgasm is merely a tool to facilitate the intimate gift of our total selves to our spouse; and it marks in our hearts and minds that this truly majestic event has occurred. The orgasm facilitates the emotional, spiritual, mental, and physical joy we experience in creating and reaffirming this union that images God Himself. Furthermore, if an angel stood before you in conversation with you, and the Holy Spirit descended on you, and you possessed within your body The Son of God, you would surely experience an unimaginable joy never experienced by any man or woman throughout history.

Mary and Joseph were married according to society's rituals, obviously, to avoid giving scandal to others. The church teaches us that the Sacrament of Matrimony was never conferred on a couple by a priest. It is the couple themselves that administers the Sacrament on each other. Mary and Joseph had no intention of living as man and wife. There are other couples in history who have chosen to be "married" externally without any intention of having sex. They are not truly married, but with commitment to this lifestyle they can find peace and contentment.

Annulments are not about human failings after the marriage, but all about whether or not the marriage was valid at its inception.

It only takes one sexual union to consummate the marriage. If for whatever reason, no more sex can take place within that marriage, it does not, in any way, invalidate the union.

02/17/2013 new

Interesting.


Suppose Joe and Sally get married, in the Church, with a priest and go home and have wonderful sex. They live happily ever after.

But Joe and Sally could get a divorce, and an anulment for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with sex. It could be shown that Joe was married to Jane when he got married to Sally. How could Joe enter into a Sacramental marriage?

To be sacramentally married, and I'll assume you are not interested in legally married, requires the consent of the man and the woman and the blessing of God.

John, you might mean well with your posting about marriage, but you are making one serious mistake. You are ignoring Scripture. Now I know Catholics ignore Scripture all the time, generally for good reason, but when a Catholic, or the Catholic Church ignores Scripture they better have a good reason. Joseph and Mary were husband and wife by God's word. "Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife" (Matthew 1:20). I suggest you rethink your position to use Scripture as the basis for your thoughts on what makes a marriage.

The other mistake you made is that you judge Mary and Joseph, and their marriage, by your standards. I am not all all convinced your standards are those of the Church. You cannot do that. If you study the history of the Church you will find that the Church encouraged behavor that is illegal, and sinful, by todays standards. We cannot go back 500 years and judge the actions of the Church, or Catholics by the standards of 2013. You ignore the fact that Joseph and Mary were betrothed. In the culture of the time when you were betrothed you were essentially married. Betrothal was serious stuff. Mary could have been stoned as an adulterer by having a child that was not Joseph's. what you are doing is like a Catholic of 1960 condemning you because you eat meat on Friday.

I never said Mary and Joseph were not married. In your post you imply that I did. Shame on you. I have always believed that Mary and Joseph were married.

I think what you wrote is nice, the stuff about sex sounds good to me. But you say that Mary and Joesph were married, by the rituals of the day, but not truely married. I think you have been reading too much modern day stuff about marriage. People now are trying to get sex into everything. Bunch of perverts. Sex is sex. It is a period of your life that you spend doing a very nice activity. It is not your life. Marriage is not about sex. Sex is a part of marriage, much like fingers are a part of the hand. Marriage is about love. Sex is a gift that is given in marriage. Opening that gift, and using it, is done at the desire of the married couple. Much like a crock pot, or a toaster. Or even fingers.

02/17/2013 new

(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said: Interesting. Suppose Joe and Sally get married, in the Church, with a priest and go...
(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:

Interesting.


Suppose Joe and Sally get married, in the Church, with a priest and go home and have wonderful sex. They live happily ever after.

But Joe and Sally could get a divorce, and an anulment for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with sex. It could be shown that Joe was married to Jane when he got married to Sally. How could Joe enter into a Sacramental marriage?

To be sacramentally married, and I'll assume you are not interested in legally married, requires the consent of the man and the woman and the blessing of God.

John, you might mean well with your posting about marriage, but you are making one serious mistake. You are ignoring Scripture. Now I know Catholics ignore Scripture all the time, generally for good reason, but when a Catholic, or the Catholic Church ignores Scripture they better have a good reason. Joseph and Mary were husband and wife by God's word. "Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife" (Matthew 1:20). I suggest you rethink your position to use Scripture as the basis for your thoughts on what makes a marriage.

The other mistake you made is that you judge Mary and Joseph, and their marriage, by your standards. I am not all all convinced your standards are those of the Church. You cannot do that. If you study the history of the Church you will find that the Church encouraged behavor that is illegal, and sinful, by todays standards. We cannot go back 500 years and judge the actions of the Church, or Catholics by the standards of 2013. You ignore the fact that Joseph and Mary were betrothed. In the culture of the time when you were betrothed you were essentially married. Betrothal was serious stuff. Mary could have been stoned as an adulterer by having a child that was not Joseph's. what you are doing is like a Catholic of 1960 condemning you because you eat meat on Friday.

I never said Mary and Joseph were not married. In your post you imply that I did. Shame on you. I have always believed that Mary and Joseph were married.

I think what you wrote is nice, the stuff about sex sounds good to me. But you say that Mary and Joesph were married, by the rituals of the day, but not truely married. I think you have been reading too much modern day stuff about marriage. People now are trying to get sex into everything. Bunch of perverts. Sex is sex. It is a period of your life that you spend doing a very nice activity. It is not your life. Marriage is not about sex. Sex is a part of marriage, much like fingers are a part of the hand. Marriage is about love. Sex is a gift that is given in marriage. Opening that gift, and using it, is done at the desire of the married couple. Much like a crock pot, or a toaster. Or even fingers.

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Lawrence


In my opinion, you are a very confused individual. No offense intended, but I decline to comment further on this subject.

03/15/2013 new

(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: As those with special needs children realize, it takes a great deal of energy to car...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:




As those with special needs children realize, it takes a great deal of energy to care for them. There are also untold blessings.


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Thank you Kathy... as the mom of a special needs son, I truly appreciate your comment.

03/15/2013 new

(Quote) Kathy-635104 said: Thwnks, Ray. I can definitely see myself as a old lady in love, shuffling along with her ...
(Quote) Kathy-635104 said:



Thwnks, Ray. I can definitely see myself as a old lady in love, shuffling along with her best guy!

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It's one of the most joyful things one can imagine seeing.

03/27/2013 new
Hi everyone I recently was messaged by a younger woman that seemed very interesting educated,pretty,devote etc,she questioned me about the possibility of having children she had never had any This was after 2 weeks of talking etc when I said that I would be open to the idea,she just dropped out of SITE?What did I say that was wrong I thought about it alot before responding to her question maybe to long?Still wondering
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