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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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01/30/2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: Mike, all good questions! I want to first express my gratitude for you reading those chap...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

Mike, all good questions! I want to first express my gratitude for you reading those chapters in 1 Cor. Thank you! So….now let us discuss them. (I am bolding things for emphasis…not to seem like I am yelling or anything.)

First, I want to distinguish between 2 types of tongues:

1) One type of tongue is a PERSONAL PRAYER language directly to God. It is not meant for prophecy but to worship God instead. This type of tongue serves you in your prayer life. It is for your own edification. It is between you and God alone.

2) The second type of tongues is a MINISTRY just like teaching and administration is a ministry. Ministries serve the people. This type of tongues is the one that you stand up in front of a congregation and speak your tongue and then an interpreter follows. This tongue edifies the whole church.

Also, just so you know these two can blend together as well. Sometimes one will be speaking in private tongues to himself and will get a prophecy in tongues for the congregation that will need an interpretation. (Also for your own knowledge there is actually 4 kinds of tongues total but I will only address these two for this conversation.)

Ch 14:1

“Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit,…”

In this verse Paul is talking about a personal prayer language in tongues. This type of tongue is NOT spoken to men but to GOD. “For no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit” This is a tongue that does not need an interpreter because the point is not to prophecy but worshiping God. To further my point Paul states this, (14:4) “On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their up building and encouragement and consolation. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself (personal tongue), but he who prophesies (ministry of prophecy in tongues) edifies the Church.” He makes the distinction by staying that tongues is equal to prophecy when it can edify the church through a prophetic interpretation. Tongues is the least of all the gifts because it only serves to edify you in your personal prayer life with God. Which is good!..Just not a greater good than the ministry of tongues with an interpreter.

Acts 2:3-4

“And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave utterance.”

We also see on Pentecost that there were not interpreters yet people understood them in their own language. So interpreters are not always necessary. And speaking in a tongue that is understood by man is not always necessary or else Paul would not make the distinction of speaking in the tongues of man and speaking in the tongues of angels.

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” 1 Cor 13:1

Ch 14:28

Paul goes on to talk about how he wants to see the Ministry of tongues proceed. He wanted order in the church by having a few (max 3) people go up one by one who have the gift of MINISTRY of tongues followed by an interpreter. He also asks for the prophets to have order as well. He then says, “If there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.” He is basically saying, “What is the point of going up and ministering tongues in front of the whole congregation without an interpreter? That would just be disruptive and pointless!” This isn’t really condemning someone from speaking in a personal paryer tongue to God, but he is directly speaking to those who would be ministering in tongues. Paul just wants order and not to scare away the unbelievers.

Ch 12:3

We know that when one prays to God, even in tongues that is not interpreted, that it is of a holy nature and not a demonic one because, “No one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says, ‘Jesus be cursed!’ and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit.” When you are praying your intention is to pray to our Lord. You’re spirit cannot praise God but then praise the devil at the same time. Those who pray in an anti-tongue due so with the intention for evil.

--hide--



Arnie, I just want to say thank you for this excellent description of the gift of tongues. It is clear, concise, and really delineates the difference between the private gift of tongues and the ministry gift of tongues. I found it extremely helpful. I have very limited experience with the Charismatic Church, but as I've stated earlier in this thread and in other threads, I have not experienced the excesses or apparently off-course actions of some Charismatics in this country. All of my experiences have been prayerful, holy, and fully in line with the Magisterium of the Church - these experiences include a Charismatic conference, a Charismatic Mass at Holy Name Cathedral, and my participation in a Charismatic prayer group for several months. I found these only increased my spirituality in terms of my relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit! Thank you again for your explanations here!

01/30/2013 new

Mike says:


Quote from your Bible;
Romans 8:26 "... for we do not know how to pray as we ought ..."

Quote from the Douay-Rheims Bible
Romans 8:26 "... For we know not what we should pray for as we ought ..."

Chelsea says:



When one asks "what" he is asking for an essence, that is, the very purpose for which a being was created.

When one asks "how" he is asking for a means to an end, that is, the path by which a specific objective is achieved.

If we do not know for WHAT we ought to pray, we can still very well know HOW to ask/pray even before we've learned the WHAT.

Yes, I agree with both of you that it does change the meaning of that verse. What I do not understand is how changing that meaning actually negates speaking in tongues.

In order to learn “How to pray” we start our children off with memorized prayers. As they mature in their faith they start talking to God through meditation and contemplation and some of the higher forms of prayer. (Of course the memorized prayers are not ONLY for children. And I’ll be the first to encourage the rosary! So, I don’t want anyone to think that I am saying that.) I also wouldn’t say that most people start praying in tongues because they don’t know HOW to pray. In fact, most of us know HOW to pray and then we learn how to pray in tongues. I don't believe that's the heart of this verse. I'll explain at the end.

I also believe that tongues is for people who “do not know WHAT we should pray for.” This is actually one of the most common ways to use tongues. When we pray over people who say things like, “I have a private petition I would like prayers for.” We have no idea WHAT to pray for so we start off with some general prayers and than pray in tongues when our intellect runs out of new ideas on what to say and what to pray for. Yet, the spirit takes over, He who knows exactly WHAT to pray for.

However, while there is a difference in meaning in both translations I do not believe there is a difference in the heart of this verse. Both translations are saying that there is a lack in our human ability some where along the lines and to get that jump start “the spirit itself intercedes.”

01/30/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Yeah Amie the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been with us since Jesus said that he would send His Sp...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Yeah Amie the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been with us since Jesus said that he would send His Spirit; through the Holy Eucharist and all the Sacraments, by saying the Rosary and other prayers. Did you read the post on page 7 of this thread about Saint Anthony of Padua? I was going to say a lot more but I'll pass. God bless.

--hide--

Mike, I went back and read your post on St. Anthony. It sounds like you prefer to move on from this conversation. I just wanted to thank you for your charitable dialog. God Bless you too! (And lots of blessings for finding beautiful wife on this site too! You seem like a gentleman.)

01/30/2013 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: Arnie, I just want to say thank you for this excellent description of the gift of t...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:




Arnie, I just want to say thank you for this excellent description of the gift of tongues. It is clear, concise, and really delineates the difference between the private gift of tongues and the ministry gift of tongues. I found it extremely helpful. I have very limited experience with the Charismatic Church, but as I've stated earlier in this thread and in other threads, I have not experienced the excesses or apparently off-course actions of some Charismatics in this country. All of my experiences have been prayerful, holy, and fully in line with the Magisterium of the Church - these experiences include a Charismatic conference, a Charismatic Mass at Holy Name Cathedral, and my participation in a Charismatic prayer group for several months. I found these only increased my spirituality in terms of my relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit! Thank you again for your explanations here!

--hide--

Patricia, bless your heart, you called me ARNIE! lol I usually get ANNIE. I think that’s funny! My mom loved the name Amy but my dad didn’t like that it looked like Army. So, my dad being French spelt it AMIE. :-)

You’re very welcome. Also, I’m glad you have had spiritually beneficial experiences from those Charismatic groups. I can understand the hesitancy of those who have had bad experiences though. Unfortunately, I have had a few shady ones myself. For the most part, like you, I have had mostly spiritual beneficial experiences. Thanks for sharing yours!

01/30/2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: Patricia, bless your heart, you called me ARNIE! lol I usually get ANNIE. I thin...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

Patricia, bless your heart, you called me ARNIE! lol I usually get ANNIE. I think that’s funny! My mom loved the name Amy but my dad didn’t like that it looked like Army. So, my dad being French spelt it AMIE. :-)

You’re very welcome. Also, I’m glad you have had spiritually beneficial experiences from those Charismatic groups. I can understand the hesitancy of those who have had bad experiences though. Unfortunately, I have had a few shady ones myself. For the most part, like you, I have had mostly spiritual beneficial experiences. Thanks for sharing yours!

--hide--


Sorry for the mispelling, Amie, I guess I looked at your name too quickly (because I was so excited by what you had to say!)

01/30/2013 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: Sorry for the mispelling, Amie, I guess I looked at your name too quickly (because I wa...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:



Sorry for the mispelling, Amie, I guess I looked at your name too quickly (because I was so excited by what you had to say!)

--hide--

No problem, I actually enjoyed it!

02/03/2013 new

One thing is certain about this thread, there are many interpretations and opinions from many people. So if the Holy Spirit is speaking to anybody in this thread (or maybe not), who is it? There can only be one truth, not many...so who here is speaking on the spirits authority and truth? Who here is speaking on no authority? How would you even tell?

02/03/2013 new

I don't care for it. I first encountered it when I was on a NET interview retreat back in 2008 and I just felt uncomfortable and out of place. I like the more traditional liturgy, especially the Latin Mass. I really enjoy going to St. Agnes for any of their masses because I enjoy the beauty of the church, getting to use the altar rail, and I like that they use the high altar.

02/03/2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: Mike, all good questions! I want to first express my gratitude for you reading those chap...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

Mike, all good questions! I want to first express my gratitude for you reading those chapters in 1 Cor. Thank you! So….now let us discuss them. (I am bolding things for emphasis…not to seem like I am yelling or anything.)

First, I want to distinguish between 2 types of tongues:

1) One type of tongue is a PERSONAL PRAYER language directly to God. It is not meant for prophecy but to worship God instead. This type of tongue serves you in your prayer life. It is for your own edification. It is between you and God alone.

2) The second type of tongues is a MINISTRY just like teaching and administration is a ministry. Ministries serve the people. This type of tongues is the one that you stand up in front of a congregation and speak your tongue and then an interpreter follows. This tongue edifies the whole church.

Also, just so you know these two can blend together as well. Sometimes one will be speaking in private tongues to himself and will get a prophecy in tongues for the congregation that will need an interpretation. (Also for your own knowledge there is actually 4 kinds of tongues total but I will only address these two for this conversation.)

Ch 14:1

“Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit,…”

In this verse Paul is talking about a personal prayer language in tongues. This type of tongue is NOT spoken to men but to GOD. “For no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit” This is a tongue that does not need an interpreter because the point is not to prophecy but worshiping God. To further my point Paul states this, (14:4) “On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their up building and encouragement and consolation. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself (personal tongue), but he who prophesies (ministry of prophecy in tongues) edifies the Church.” He makes the distinction by staying that tongues is equal to prophecy when it can edify the church through a prophetic interpretation. Tongues is the least of all the gifts because it only serves to edify you in your personal prayer life with God. Which is good!..Just not a greater good than the ministry of tongues with an interpreter.

Acts 2:3-4

“And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave utterance.”

We also see on Pentecost that there were not interpreters yet people understood them in their own language. So interpreters are not always necessary. And speaking in a tongue that is understood by man is not always necessary or else Paul would not make the distinction of speaking in the tongues of man and speaking in the tongues of angels.

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” 1 Cor 13:1

Ch 14:28

Paul goes on to talk about how he wants to see the Ministry of tongues proceed. He wanted order in the church by having a few (max 3) people go up one by one who have the gift of MINISTRY of tongues followed by an interpreter. He also asks for the prophets to have order as well. He then says, “If there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.” He is basically saying, “What is the point of going up and ministering tongues in front of the whole congregation without an interpreter? That would just be disruptive and pointless!” This isn’t really condemning someone from speaking in a personal paryer tongue to God, but he is directly speaking to those who would be ministering in tongues. Paul just wants order and not to scare away the unbelievers.

Ch 12:3

We know that when one prays to God, even in tongues that is not interpreted, that it is of a holy nature and not a demonic one because, “No one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says, ‘Jesus be cursed!’ and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit.” When you are praying your intention is to pray to our Lord. You’re spirit cannot praise God but then praise the devil at the same time. Those who pray in an anti-tongue due so with the intention for evil.

--hide--



Thank you, for the excellent lesson for all. . . as a Charismatic believer, I had access to this teaching before I was Catholic. . . it is too bad not everyone understands the difference between tongues for personal and tongues for corporate edification. . . and everyone forgets about their mention in the reading from today.

02/04/2013 new

Karl Keating

President, Catholic Answers
Re: Pope "thanks to the charismatic movement One should be careful about reading too much into a papal compliment.

In 1964 Pope Paul VI spoke before the U.N. General Assembly, the first pope to do so. He thanked the U.N. for the good things it was doing.

Many liberals thought the Pope gave the U.N. carte blanche. Many conservatives were upset by his words. Each group read too much into what the Holy Father said.

The fact was that the U.N. indeed was doing some good things, and it also was doing some bad things. Paul VI thanked the U.N. for the former and didn't mention the latter. He had certain reasons for accentuating the positive. It was a matter of diplomacy.

Something similar happens when popes talk about spiritual movements. They praise the good points and (usually) don't mention the troublesome points. It may be natural for members of those movements to conclude that they have a papal endorsement, but they read too much into the situation.

Over the centuries popes have permitted many spiritual movements to operate for long periods of time before finally giving a definitive thumbs up or thumbs down. The charismatic movement has existed in the Catholic Church for only 37 years, a short time as the Church measures things. The absence of a final determination one way or the other tells us little at this point.

One thing that rarely is mentioned, either by friends or foes of the charismatic movement, is that not one of the popes who has reigned since the movement began ever has taken up the charismatic spirituality. Neither Paul VI nor John Paul I nor John Paul II has engaged in speaking in tongues, for example.

If it indeed is the case that this new movement is from God, why haven't any of the Supreme Pastors been given the gifts that are said to be given to millions of lay people? forums.catholic.com
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