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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Feb 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: I'm in complete agreement with you. However, it seems from various posters that I&#...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



I'm in complete agreement with you. However, it seems from various posters that I've read on this thread and others, what charismaticism apparently means in the USA is unfortunately not necessarily what it means in Canada, Great Britain, Australia or New Zealand.

Like I said before, I can only speak to my personal experiences, so it is pleasant to hear when other people have had spiritually beneficial experience in the charismatic communities.

--hide--

That's certainly true. I also realise a lot of my experiences, and the experiences of my New Zealand fellows is not what our bros and sisters in Christ in the States are experiencing. You guys probably have much larger parishes which can then accomodate completely "Catholic" membership in these groups. We don't really have that luxery in NZL.

When I mean Charistmatic, I mean it to be use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and a more "active" worship session. ie. praise & worship with more contemporary music and ideas - but generally outside of the context of the Mass. The Mass isn't really a party.

Feb 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Stewart-821725 said: One thing is certain about this thread, there are many interpretations and opinions from many p...
(Quote) Stewart-821725 said:

One thing is certain about this thread, there are many interpretations and opinions from many people. So if the Holy Spirit is speaking to anybody in this thread (or maybe not), who is it? There can only be one truth, not many...so who here is speaking on the spirits authority and truth? Who here is speaking on no authority? How would you even tell?

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Easy to answer really:

What is being said, does it contradict Sacred Tradition, Scripture and comments made by Popes operating under Papal Infalibility?

These questions are not new to the Christian Church, the Early Church Fathers asked them, Saints have asked them, Theologians today still ponder them. We have the answers its just about finding them and understanding context.

With that said, you can't go wrong with the question "Does it give all glory to God?" If yes, you really can't be off track. The beauty of the Holy Spirit is while everything He gives is Truth, Truth might be expressed differently for each person:

1 + 9 = 10

2 + 8 = 10

3 + 7 = 10

4 + 6 = 10

5 + 5 = 10

1 x 10 = 10

2 x 5 = 10

And so on and so fourth. Same answer, different formulae. All truth.

Feb 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Karl Keating President, Cath...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Karl Keating

President, Catholic Answers
Re: Pope "thanks to the charismatic movement One should be careful about reading too much into a papal compliment.

In 1964 Pope Paul VI spoke before the U.N. General Assembly, the first pope to do so. He thanked the U.N. for the good things it was doing.

Many liberals thought the Pope gave the U.N. carte blanche. Many conservatives were upset by his words. Each group read too much into what the Holy Father said.

The fact was that the U.N. indeed was doing some good things, and it also was doing some bad things. Paul VI thanked the U.N. for the former and didn't mention the latter. He had certain reasons for accentuating the positive. It was a matter of diplomacy.

Something similar happens when popes talk about spiritual movements. They praise the good points and (usually) don't mention the troublesome points. It may be natural for members of those movements to conclude that they have a papal endorsement, but they read too much into the situation.

Over the centuries popes have permitted many spiritual movements to operate for long periods of time before finally giving a definitive thumbs up or thumbs down. The charismatic movement has existed in the Catholic Church for only 37 years, a short time as the Church measures things. The absence of a final determination one way or the other tells us little at this point.

One thing that rarely is mentioned, either by friends or foes of the charismatic movement, is that not one of the popes who has reigned since the movement began ever has taken up the charismatic spirituality. Neither Paul VI nor John Paul I nor John Paul II has engaged in speaking in tongues, for example.

If it indeed is the case that this new movement is from God, why haven't any of the Supreme Pastors been given the gifts that are said to be given to millions of lay people? forums.catholic.com

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The gift of tongues can be as prosaic as the ability to learn and speak other languages. It can be other things as well.

Nevertheless, reacall that the First instance for the Gifts of tongues was on Pentacost, when the Apostles addressed the crowds. Each person in the crowd understood the speakers as if they were speaking in the hearers own language. See Acts Chapter 2 Verse 5 and on.

Feb 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: The gift of tongues can be as prosaic as the ability to learn and speak other languages. ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

The gift of tongues can be as prosaic as the ability to learn and speak other languages. It can be other things as well.

Nevertheless, reacall that the First instance for the Gifts of tongues was on Pentacost, when the Apostles addressed the crowds. Each person in the crowd understood the speakers as if they were speaking in the hearers own language. See Acts Chapter 2 Verse 5 and on.

--hide--

OOps, I failed to complete the thought I was aiming for in my First sentence.

I meant to say, The gift of tongues can be as prosaic as the abiliuty to learn and speak another language. In that case, both JPII and Benedict had - have the gift in spades. I believe Benedict has mastered 7 or 9 languages with fluency.

Feb 4th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: OOps, I failed to complete the thought I was aiming for in my First sentence. I me...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

OOps, I failed to complete the thought I was aiming for in my First sentence.

I meant to say, The gift of tongues can be as prosaic as the abiliuty to learn and speak another language. In that case, both JPII and Benedict had - have the gift in spades. I believe Benedict has mastered 7 or 9 languages with fluency.

--hide--

I heard Pope Bene can even joke in Latin!

Feb 5th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: One thing that rarely is mentioned, either by friends or foes of the charismatic movement, is that not one of th...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: One thing that rarely is mentioned, either by friends or foes of the charismatic movement, is that not one of the popes who has reigned since the movement began ever has taken up the charismatic spirituality. Neither Paul VI nor John Paul I nor John Paul II has engaged in speaking in tongues, for example.

If it indeed is the case that this new movement is from God, why haven't any of the Supreme Pastors been given the gifts that are said to be given to millions of lay people? forums.catholic.com
--hide--

Hm...I'm not sure who exactly is stating this Bernard or how he has the authority to make this claim....(How does he know the popes didn't? Did he know them personally? Does he know a friend who knows them personally?) Also, it's really not logically sound. By the same reasoning you could also beg the questions: None of these popes performed miracles (to my knowledge) so why should lay people be given some gift of miracles? None of these popes have the gift of interpretation of tongues (to my knowledge).....so why would any of the lay be given this? And this list goes on. Yet, I've seen lay people perform many of the spiritual gifts.....You don't have to be a saint to have the Holy Spirit use you.

Also, my priest does actually know someone who did know JPII well and on his authority he said JPII did actually speak in tongues. This was quite some time ago and I wouldn't be able to give you that guys name or anything. You are free to believe that or not. I trust my priest but I would understand if you didn't trust some "crazy charismatic" who knows a priest who knows a friend....etc lol Just saying.......it's possible.

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Stewart-821725 said: Avoiding sarcasm isn't easy for you is it? I would like to point out that, the judgm...
(Quote) Stewart-821725 said:

Avoiding sarcasm isn't easy for you is it?

I would like to point out that, the judgment of those 3 Popes were in no way binding upon the Church. How many other legitimate rites are there in the Church???

From every conference, event, I've attended, been a part of and seen on the internet is the "crazymatic" style of worship. Whenever you see a catholic prayer group, or conference, you see people falling all over themselves, babbling on in supposed "tongues" which no one understands, jumping around like maniacs, laughing hysterically for no apparent reason (other than being drunk on themselves), and generally dis-respecting the house of the Lord. It looks more like a love in or a drug party than a Catholic service. And when you do see a group that isn't acting in this way, it has been stripped of all life, and resembles one of those poor children's shows, where everybody is okay and everything must be "nice".

Your claim that charasmatic worship resembles the church of the early time, is just outright incorrect, put down your "spirit of vatican 2 book". The church was under heavy persecution for a long time, they were just a tad more concerned with the things of everyday life, promoting the gospel, and surviving. I mean for crying out loud, do you think Paul wrote those letters because he liked picking a bone with people?

As far as I can tell those people who would wander off because they can't have "charismatic worship" just illustrates that they have checked out long ago and coasting on sugar.

--hide--


You're making a lot of assumption which I can assure you are inaccurate. Do certain people in the charismatic movement take things too far or act inways that may be close to (or over) the line? Sure. But


I'm no church liberal. No loosey goosey "spirit of Vatican II" Catholic. Never have been, never will be. My preference in worship is reverent and deeply personal. Sometimes I'm given the grace of tears during the Consecration. If it happens I bow my head so no one sees. No ostyentatious display. Just deep love. If Charismatics worship with the force of the Holy Spirit, then good on them. Look at the tone you've adopted to describe people of deep faith. Is this right? Is this charitable?



Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Stewart-821725 said: One thing is certain about this thread, there are many interpretations and opinions from many p...
(Quote) Stewart-821725 said:

One thing is certain about this thread, there are many interpretations and opinions from many people. So if the Holy Spirit is speaking to anybody in this thread (or maybe not), who is it? There can only be one truth, not many...so who here is speaking on the spirits authority and truth? Who here is speaking on no authority? How would you even tell?

--hide--


This is the fundamental point of all division in the Church currently. What is Truth? Truth is Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, that which has been passed on to us. Great Church doctors and theologians have always and repeatedly warned of "novelties" or "change". Because of all the change and admitted novelties that have sprung fourth in the last 60-70 years I personally am very sceptical of those that are "new". It is my duty as a Catholic to protect, guard, and be a light to the Truth that was passed to me from prior generations of Catholics. I encourage people to read not just modern Catholic writing, but also older stuff. Go read the encyclicals AGAINST ecumenism and compare it to what many Bishops and other churchmen think on the topic today.

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) John-324285 said: This is the fundamental point of all division in the Church currently. What is Truth? Trut...
(Quote) John-324285 said:



This is the fundamental point of all division in the Church currently. What is Truth? Truth is Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, that which has been passed on to us. Great Church doctors and theologians have always and repeatedly warned of "novelties" or "change". Because of all the change and admitted novelties that have sprung fourth in the last 60-70 years I personally am very sceptical of those that are "new". It is my duty as a Catholic to protect, guard, and be a light to the Truth that was passed to me from prior generations of Catholics. I encourage people to read not just modern Catholic writing, but also older stuff. Go read the encyclicals AGAINST ecumenism and compare it to what many Bishops and other churchmen think on the topic today.

--hide--

What any individual Bishop or other churchmen think or say about ecuminism is totally immatereial. what counts is what the Chuirch says about it.

And the Church looks to ecuminism as part of teh Chuirche's job to evagalize and lead ALL TO Christ through HIs one, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: I'm no church liberal. No loosey goosey "spirit of Vatican II" Catholic. Never have...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

I'm no church liberal. No loosey goosey "spirit of Vatican II" Catholic. Never have been, never will be. My preference in worship is reverent and deeply personal. Sometimes I'm given the grace of tears during the Consecration. If it happens I bow my head so no one sees. No ostyentatious display. Just deep love. If Charismatics worship with the force of the Holy Spirit, then good on them. Look at the tone you've adopted to describe people of deep faith. Is this right? Is this charitable?

--hide--


Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most skeptical is the charismatic movement (I agree it is not a "rite") that 1) It is new and untried, as John and a few others have mentioned, and the Church is very circumspect about these things 2) the fact that it removes the emphasis from God and adoration of Him to focusing on humans and their levels/manifestations of God's grace. and 3) the idea that this emotional feeling and response is a sign of faith/grace/God's love etc. Does this mean that those who do not manifest in the ways charismatics do are not recipients or not equal recipients of God's love and grace and that He is not working in their lives?

I am not denying that some people may have very powerful experiences with faith, or may manifest their joy in some of the ways describved, but for it to be such a central focus of one's spiritual life strikes me as not only unhealthy, but dangerous.


Even the greatest saints have had "dark nights of the soul". St. Francis de Sales was at one point so confused over a heretical teaching that was sweeping his area (The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination, if I recall correctly, and the Calvinists also believed that God's decision was reflected in the person's material and physical wellbeing while on earth, which strikes me as somewhat like charismatics' belief that His favor/grace/love are reflected outwardly so often) that he prayed to Our Lady that even if he WAS destined to spend eternity in Hell cursing God's name, he be granted a long life on earth with which to praise Him, regardless of how spiritually abandoned he felt. THAT is faith. and grace. How would that have turned out had St. Frances been fully entrenched in the charismatic tradition? "Oh, I don't feel God, He must not love me." ?? The emphasis on feelings rather than truth seems to me to be very shaky ground. Satans knows our frail human hearts and motivations SO well, he can surely manipulate them for his own ends. God loves us, even when we can't feel it, and the Holy Ghost is in us if we are in a state of grace. How we poor mortals feel at any given moment is of little consequence except to ourselves.

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