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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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02/06/2013 new

(Quote) Heidi-570402 said: Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most sk...
(Quote) Heidi-570402 said:


Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most skeptical is the charismatic movement (I agree it is not a "rite") that 1) It is new and untried, as John and a few others have mentioned, and the Church is very circumspect about these things 2) the fact that it removes the emphasis from God and adoration of Him to focusing on humans and their levels/manifestations of God's grace. and 3) the idea that this emotional feeling and response is a sign of faith/grace/God's love etc. Does this mean that those who do not manifest in the ways charismatics do are not recipients or not equal recipients of God's love and grace and that He is not working in their lives?

I am not denying that some people may have very powerful experiences with faith, or may manifest their joy in some of the ways describved, but for it to be such a central focus of one's spiritual life strikes me as not only unhealthy, but dangerous.


Even the greatest saints have had "dark nights of the soul". St. Francis de Sales was at one point so confused over a heretical teaching that was sweeping his area (The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination, if I recall correctly, and the Calvinists also believed that God's decision was reflected in the person's material and physical wellbeing while on earth, which strikes me as somewhat like charismatics' belief that His favor/grace/love are reflected outwardly so often) that he prayed to Our Lady that even if he WAS destined to spend eternity in Hell cursing God's name, he be granted a long life on earth with which to praise Him, regardless of how spiritually abandoned he felt. THAT is faith. and grace. How would that have turned out had St. Frances been fully entrenched in the charismatic tradition? "Oh, I don't feel God, He must not love me." ?? The emphasis on feelings rather than truth seems to me to be very shaky ground. Satans knows our frail human hearts and motivations SO well, he can surely manipulate them for his own ends. God loves us, even when we can't feel it, and the Holy Ghost is in us if we are in a state of grace. How we poor mortals feel at any given moment is of little consequence except to ourselves.

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Heidi, have you ever been to a Charismatic prayer group or a Charismatic Mass or a Charismatic Conference? From reading your comments, I sincerely doubt it.

Especially regarding your 2nd point. The entire focus of the Charismatic Movement is on God and adoring him and praising him. I have no idea where you got the ideas you have, but they are simply incorrect. And, honestly, I have no idea what you are saying in your 3rd point. As for God's grace, it is given to all who ask for it (and sometimes to those who don't even ask for it). And, as for God's love, as far as I know, he loves all of us. So, what you are saying makes no sense, and I never heard any of that said at any Charismatic prayer group, Mass, or Conference. I have no idea where you got the idea that Charismatics believe that God's favor/grace/love is reflected outwardly. Again, I never heard such a thing, and I have attended a Charismatic prayer group, a Charismatic Mass at Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, and a Charismatic Conference for 2 days which was filled with adoration of God and prayers (nothing heretical as far as I could see and this was the first Charismatic event I had ever been at.)

Also, you might want to read Fr. Cantalamesa's book which I'm sure has been previously referenced in this thread. Since he is part of the Vatican, I would think you might consider his book to be worthwhile reading. I would suggest that instead of judging the Charismatics as you appear to be doing here, that you might want to educated yourself about the Charismatic movement by reading Fr. Cantalamesa's book and possibly attending a Charismatic Mass.

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Heidi-570402 said: Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most sk...
(Quote) Heidi-570402 said:


Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most skeptical is the charismatic movement (I agree it is not a "rite") that 1) It is new and untried, as John and a few others have mentioned, and the Church is very circumspect about these things 2) the fact that it removes the emphasis from God and adoration of Him to focusing on humans and their levels/manifestations of God's grace. and 3) the idea that this emotional feeling and response is a sign of faith/grace/God's love etc. Does this mean that those who do not manifest in the ways charismatics do are not recipients or not equal recipients of God's love and grace and that He is not working in their lives?

I am not denying that some people may have very powerful experiences with faith, or may manifest their joy in some of the ways describved, but for it to be such a central focus of one's spiritual life strikes me as not only unhealthy, but dangerous.


Even the greatest saints have had "dark nights of the soul". St. Francis de Sales was at one point so confused over a heretical teaching that was sweeping his area (The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination, if I recall correctly, and the Calvinists also believed that God's decision was reflected in the person's material and physical wellbeing while on earth, which strikes me as somewhat like charismatics' belief that His favor/grace/love are reflected outwardly so often) that he prayed to Our Lady that even if he WAS destined to spend eternity in Hell cursing God's name, he be granted a long life on earth with which to praise Him, regardless of how spiritually abandoned he felt. THAT is faith. and grace. How would that have turned out had St. Frances been fully entrenched in the charismatic tradition? "Oh, I don't feel God, He must not love me." ?? The emphasis on feelings rather than truth seems to me to be very shaky ground. Satans knows our frail human hearts and motivations SO well, he can surely manipulate them for his own ends. God loves us, even when we can't feel it, and the Holy Ghost is in us if we are in a state of grace. How we poor mortals feel at any given moment is of little consequence except to ourselves.

--hide--

Heidi,

A reply to your comments:

1) The Charismatic movement is “new and untried” I have already grazed this topic so I’m going to copy and paste.

Vatican II is often criticized for the abuses that were allowed to take place (Closed 1965). Being brand new there was a lot of kinks to be worked out of it and lots of clarification that was necessary so that priests didn’t interpret the documents incorrectly and run with it. However, it’s taken 50 years of correction here and there to fix things and educate the lay people. They just came out with that manual for saying the mass with the more directly translated words last year. New things take time to get all the kinks out. Just as it took time for Vatican II to grow up a bit, it has also taken time for the Charismatic movement to grow up too. When the spirit came back like gang busters (as father Ed puts it) there were a lot of people who were babies in understanding what the gifts were for, how to properly use them, how to properly grow through them, what the pitfall sins would be, etc...But, fortunately it’s been about 50 years as well and I am happy to report we have experienced lay people and priests who have the hang of it now. People are writing books about their experiences, recording events, giving talks and presentations, they are aware of the possible abuses (because they’ve seen it!) and they are aware of its amazing benefits (once again because they’ve seen it!) I do believe all of this crazy stuff that people tell me about certain Charismatics will soon be condemned as more information is revealed and concrete.

2) the fact that it removes the emphasis from God and adoration of Him to focusing on humans and their levels/manifestations of God's grace.

DOES it remove the emphasis from God and adoration? Please give examples so that they can possibly be clarified for you. There are many things in our Catholic faith that aren’t what they appear to be upon first glance. Ex: Many Protestants assume that because we kneel and pray to a Mary statue that we are doing one of two things A) worshiping a statue or B) worshiping her as a God. Looking from the outside in I can at least understand where Protestants get these ideas. With a little time and effort these things can be clarified. Same with the Charismatic movement. Many things can be faulsly assumed upon first glance. From my personal experience, it was the Charismatics God centeredness that brought me into a real relationship with Christ.

3) To answer your question: No, it does not mean that those who do not manifest in the ways that charismatics do are not equal recipients of God’s love and grace. In St. Therese’ book, “The story of a soul” she rarely heard God’s voice or manifested charisms, yet her gift was “her little way”. Then there’s the other side of the spectrum with St. Faustina. Have you ever read her diary? It seems as if she manifested daily! She heard God audibly all of the time. So, which saint did God love more? It’s not really a fair question. Both were obedient to God in their unique calling. We are called to simply be obedient to His calling on our life no matter how that manifests. Question for you: What event in your life made you think that Charismatics claim that one must constantly manifest charisms, joyful, and fuzzy feelings at all times in order to be loved by God?

I am familiar with the dark night of the soul THROUGH the Charismatics I know. I’m willing to bet that if you actually talked to a leader of a charismatic group you’ll see that they have a pretty good understand about what “choosing Love and choosing Faith” actually means that are not based solely on emotions and feelings. Also, sometimes emotions and feelings ARE a sign of Gods love and sweet whispers. Please read my first post regarding this. Feelings and emotions are good! They just can’t be trusted without our reason and intellect as a balance. Your description of St. Francis De Sales statement about his Faith IS NOT a charismatic/non charismatic issue. Why make it into that? This is simply someone who is growing in understanding and choosing what true love really is. Charismatics (while all are on different levels of spiritual growth) come to those very same conclusions. It’s a part of being a child of God. He “tests those he loves.” (I believe that was the heart of the daily reading in Hebrews for today.) Anyone can be Charismatic and going through a Dark night of the soul at the same time. Why not? They are not opposites!

You state this, “but for it to be such a central focus of one's spiritual life strikes me as not only unhealthy, but dangerous.” Will you please clarify the IT in this sentence? I’m not sure what IT was referring to so I am unable to comment on what you consider to be an unhealthy and dangerous spiritual life.

You stated, “the Calvinists also believed that God's decision was reflected in the person's material and physical wellbeing while on earth, which strikes me as somewhat like charismatics’ belief.” Why? I have never heard this idea preached by Charismatics. I’m genuinely curious where/how you get this impression….?

02/07/2013 new

Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But does Fr. Cantalamessa actually realize the way that Catholic Charismatics in the US are speaking in tongues? I have noticed that some like to read into what he has said the way they want to believe it regarding the Charismatic movement. Can someone post a link with Fr. Cantalamessa actually encouraging Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter?

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But d...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But does Fr. Cantalamessa actually realize the way that Catholic Charismatics in the US are speaking in tongues? I have noticed that some like to read into what he has said the way they want to believe it regarding the Charismatic movement. Can someone post a link with Fr. Cantalamessa actually encouraging Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter?

--hide--


In a previous thread about Charismatics, I posted a link to a Youtube video of Fr. Cantalamessa. I don't have time to find it now, but perhaps you could do a keyword search here in the forums, or just google Fr. Cantalamessa and youtube and maybe even tongues, and I suspect that you would find it. His book is excellent so you might want to look at that on Amazon (as I think you could read some online). He originally was quite skeptical of the Charismatic Movement until he personally experienced it. And, he is about as reputable as you get!

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But d...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But does Fr. Cantalamessa actually realize the way that Catholic Charismatics in the US are speaking in tongues? I have noticed that some like to read into what he has said the way they want to believe it regarding the Charismatic movement. Can someone post a link with Fr. Cantalamessa actually encouraging Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter?

--hide--


Here is one link of a Youtube video of Fr. Cantalamessa speaking in 2009: (There are more videos on youtube and he mentions his own website in this video which has apparently the text of a talk he gave to the Pope, etc. in either 2008 or 2009 (not sure which).

www.youtube.com

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: (Quote) Patricia-29176 said: (Quote) Mike-41230 said:
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Quote:
Patricia-29176 said:

Quote:
Mike-41230 said:

Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, Fr. Cantalamessa and others may have been or are accepting of charismatics. But did they or anyone from the Vatican ever talk or write about "speaking in tongues"?




Below is a link to a Youtube video of Fr. Cantalamessa speaking in which he references speaking in tongues (briefly). I suspect there are more references on the net or in his excellent book "Sober Intoxication of the Spirit". This video is about 5 minutes (listen carefully as Fr. Cantalamessa speaks English with an Italian accent.)

www.youtube.com


Thanks Patricia. I had to listen to Fr. Cantalamessa's video 4 times. If you listen to it around 57 seconds into the video Fr. Cantalamessa says "and they started speaking in other languages."

Fr. Cantalamessa is referring to Acts 2:4-12. Now just replace the word tongues in these verses below with the word languages and you will see that speaking in tongues in the time of the Apostles meant speaking in diverse languages.

Acts 2:4-12 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. [5] Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. [6] And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. [7] And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? [8] And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? [9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, [10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, [11] Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. [12] And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this?

In the times of the Apostles Pentecost or "the Fiftieth day" was a prominent feast in the calendar of ancient Israel celebrating the giving of the Law on Sinai wherein Israelites "out of every nation under heaven", that spoke different languages gathered in Jerusalem. Hence the Apostles spoke in different languages (different tongues) to bring the Word of Our Lord to the 3,000 at the Catholic Church's first Pentecost.

I do not think speaking in tongues in the time of the Apostles meant what it does these days. My aunt, who was over 90 years of age at the time and was a charismatic told me that "speaking in tongues" came into the Catholic Church in 1967 through members of the Pentecostal church.

That all said, nobody is saying that charismatics are not part of the Catholic Church.

--hide--

That Youtube video was actually in this thread Patricia. I watched that video 4 times and did not come to the same conclusion that some here do. In fact I am replying to that same post where you posted that video Patricia (plus my reply). So if you click the gray bar you can see it there.

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But d...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But does Fr. Cantalamessa actually realize the way that Catholic Charismatics in the US are speaking in tongues? I have noticed that some like to read into what he has said the way they want to believe it regarding the Charismatic movement. Can someone post a link with Fr. Cantalamessa actually encouraging Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter?

--hide--


Fr. Cantalamessa's website (which includes texts of many of his sermons as preacher to the Pope) is http://www.cantalamessa.org.

His book about his experience with the Charismatic movement is Sober Intoxication of the Spirit.

Hope this helps!

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: That Youtube video was actually in this thread Patricia. I watched that video 4 times and ...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

That Youtube video was actually in this thread Patricia. I watched that video 4 times and did not come to the same conclusion that some here do. In fact I am replying to that same post where you posted that video Patricia (plus my reply). So if you click the gray bar you can see it there.

--hide--


Then I would suggest that it would be helpful for you to read his book or some of his sermons on his website!

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: (Quote) Mike-41230 said: Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has be...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:

Quote:
Mike-41230 said:

Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But does Fr. Cantalamessa actually realize the way that Catholic Charismatics in the US are speaking in tongues? I have noticed that some like to read into what he has said the way they want to believe it regarding the Charismatic movement. Can someone post a link with Fr. Cantalamessa actually encouraging Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter?




Here is one link of a Youtube video of Fr. Cantalamessa speaking in 2009: (There are more videos on youtube and he mentions his own website in this video which has apparently the text of a talk he gave to the Pope, etc. in either 2008 or 2009 (not sure which).

www.youtube.com

--hide--

Thanks Patricia. That's a different video than what I replied to earlier. In this one Fr. Cantalamessa is speaking of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and refers the listener to Second Peter to find it. I just read Second Peter (it's just 3 short chapters). Fr. Cantalamessa must be talking about 2 Peter 1:22 "For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." That must be what Fr. Cantalamessa is meaning because in Chapters 2 and 3 St. Peter is warning us about false teachers and deceitful scoffers in the end days, then St. Peter finishes by saying that we should look "for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth."

It's hard to understand Fr. Cantalamessa but I didn't hear him mention anything about speaking in tongues in that video.

02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Thanks Patricia. That's a different video than what I replied to earlier. In this one ...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Thanks Patricia. That's a different video than what I replied to earlier. In this one Fr. Cantalamessa is speaking of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and refers the listener to Second Peter to find it. I just read Second Peter (it's just 3 short chapters). Fr. Cantalamessa must be talking about 2 Peter 1:22 "For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." That must be what Fr. Cantalamessa is meaning because in Chapters 2 and 3 St. Peter is warning us about false teachers and deceitful scoffers in the end days, then St. Peter finishes by saying that we should look "for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth."

It's hard to understand Fr. Cantalamessa but I didn't hear him mention anything about speaking in tongues in that video.

--hide--


There may be other videos online, but as I said, if you really want to know what he is saying, I would suggest reading his book or reading his sermons online at this website I posted.

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