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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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02/07/2013 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: (Quote) Mike-41230 said: Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has be...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:

Quote:
Mike-41230 said:

Just curious. Fr. Cantalamessa from Rome has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. But does Fr. Cantalamessa actually realize the way that Catholic Charismatics in the US are speaking in tongues? I have noticed that some like to read into what he has said the way they want to believe it regarding the Charismatic movement. Can someone post a link with Fr. Cantalamessa actually encouraging Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter?




Fr. Cantalamessa's website (which includes texts of many of his sermons as preacher to the Pope) is http://www.cantalamessa.org.

His book about his experience with the Charismatic movement is Sober Intoxication of the Spirit.

Hope this helps!

--hide--

Thanks Patricia. I was hoping that someone could direct me to the appropriate link where Fr. Cantalamessa actually encourages Catholic Charismatics to speak in tongues the way some in the US do, you know where not everyone present understands what is being said without an interpreter.

But it looks like I'll have to do some studying to find it. I won't post in this thread again until I either find it or don't find it. By the looks of Fr. Cantalamessa's web site that may take a few months. I won't be a paid member of CM by then. So I guess I just got shut up. biggrin wave

02/07/2013 new

Nevertheless I have bookmarked Fr. Cantalamessa's web site and I do plan on reading it. Thanks again.

02/14/2013 new

(Quote) Heidi-570402 said: Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most sk...
(Quote) Heidi-570402 said:


Just a caveat, I'm somewhat new to the topic, but what makes me most skeptical is the charismatic movement (I agree it is not a "rite") that 1) It is new and untried, as John and a few others have mentioned, and the Church is very circumspect about these things 2) the fact that it removes the emphasis from God and adoration of Him to focusing on humans and their levels/manifestations of God's grace. and 3) the idea that this emotional feeling and response is a sign of faith/grace/God's love etc. Does this mean that those who do not manifest in the ways charismatics do are not recipients or not equal recipients of God's love and grace and that He is not working in their lives?

I am not denying that some people may have very powerful experiences with faith, or may manifest their joy in some of the ways describved, but for it to be such a central focus of one's spiritual life strikes me as not only unhealthy, but dangerous.


Even the greatest saints have had "dark nights of the soul". St. Francis de Sales was at one point so confused over a heretical teaching that was sweeping his area (The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination, if I recall correctly, and the Calvinists also believed that God's decision was reflected in the person's material and physical wellbeing while on earth, which strikes me as somewhat like charismatics' belief that His favor/grace/love are reflected outwardly so often) that he prayed to Our Lady that even if he WAS destined to spend eternity in Hell cursing God's name, he be granted a long life on earth with which to praise Him, regardless of how spiritually abandoned he felt. THAT is faith. and grace. How would that have turned out had St. Frances been fully entrenched in the charismatic tradition? "Oh, I don't feel God, He must not love me." ?? The emphasis on feelings rather than truth seems to me to be very shaky ground. Satans knows our frail human hearts and motivations SO well, he can surely manipulate them for his own ends. God loves us, even when we can't feel it, and the Holy Ghost is in us if we are in a state of grace. How we poor mortals feel at any given moment is of little consequence except to ourselves.

--hide--

Heidi,

Having been through the gauntlet, so to speak, in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I did not find it ultimately to be edifying.

I found it rather to be about self-importance and sensual experience. It's been reiterated over and over in this thread by some of the posters how pleasant it makes them feel to do "charismatic" actions...and how pleasant the "spirit" feels and such, in complete disregard for the divine attribute of divinity which does not allow us to touch the Holy Spirit sensually.

This is my personal experience, and apparently some others on the thread, though their judgment of the situation differs from mine. I call it unedifying, they call it edifying. The only person who actually seemed to be involved in a decent charismatic group is Naomi from New Zealand.

My personal belief is that when sensuality (the experience of irrational passionate and emotional movements) replaces actual spirituality (the experience of the intellect working in harmony with the will with the goal of the beatific vision), that one is on the wrong path.

I am not knocking the legitimate use of charisms as the Church has always fostered, I think as a whole, they're a great good for humanity, otherwise God would not give them. However, that doesn't mean that every extraordinary happening which looks like a charism is in fact a charism, and most people miss that difference.

I think your post has merit whether you've actually had experience in the charismatic movement or not...we all have eyes to see and intellects to discern...

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 Heidi, Having been through the gauntlet, so to speak, in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484

Heidi,

Having been through the gauntlet, so to speak, in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I did not find it ultimately to be edifying.

I found it rather to be about self-importance and sensual experience. It's been reiterated over and over in this thread by some of the posters how pleasant it makes them feel to do "charismatic" actions...and how pleasant the "spirit" feels and such, in complete disregard for the divine attribute of divinity which does not allow us to touch the Holy Spirit sensually.

This is my personal experience, and apparently some others on the thread, though their judgment of the situation differs from mine. I call it unedifying, they call it edifying. The only person who actually seemed to be involved in a decent charismatic group is Naomi from New Zealand.

My personal belief is that when sensuality (the experience of irrational passionate and emotional movements) replaces actual spirituality (the experience of the intellect working in harmony with the will with the goal of the beatific vision), that one is on the wrong path.

--hide--

Chelsea,

You stated, “and how pleasant the "spirit" feels and such, in complete disregard for the divine attribute of divinity which does not allow us to touch the Holy Spirit sensually.”

Why is it a COMPLETE disregard?

You stated, “My personal belief is that when sensuality (the experience of irrational passionate and emotional movements) replaces actual spirituality (the experience of the intellect working in harmony with the will with the goal of the beatific vision), that one is on the wrong path.”

Why must it be a THIS OR THAT, instead of a THIS AND THAT?

Let’s take courting as an example…..often times it’s the feelings of love, respect, admireation, and desire that draw you to someone in the first place. After the initial attraction you start to discern immediately through observation, prayer and reason how one compliments you. People who have been married a long time will tell you that the emotions of love wane and that’s where the real test of love comes. That’s when one must choose love through the will and reason instead of feelings. However, a married couple will still get to enjoy moments throughout their marriage of that beautiful attraction that once played a large roll in the beginning, only the attraction has transformed into something much deeper and truer and more pure as their love is continually tested.

Why would the Charismatic movement be a COMPLETE disregard for that which draws you toward God? Why do you not see the value in how God can use emotions to lead us to Him and to a deeper level of learning about love? Just because someone has had a dark night of the soul or a dark night of the senses, does not mean that all of a sudden he or she has graduated from all of God’s consolations. NO WAY! Just as the married couple has grueled through choosing love by their will and reason….so must all charismatics growing in love go through such trials and tests. A married couple growing in holiness can be parralleled to us growing in love with God. Both come with Dark nights and consolations dispersed throughout the entire relationship yet both help you to grow deeper and deeper in love.

To say that the Charismatic movement has been about self importance and to hold that claim against the Charismatic movement because of your experience, is like an Atheist saying “All priests are pedophiles and the Catholic church does nothing about it because that’s what I saw on the news.” Both experiences are just not be an accurate description of the situation in it's entirety.

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: Chelsea, You stated, “and how pleasant the "spirit&qu...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

Chelsea,

You stated, “and how pleasant the "spirit" feels and such, in complete disregard for the divine attribute of divinity which does not allow us to touch the Holy Spirit sensually.”

Why is it a COMPLETE disregard?

You stated, “My personal belief is that when sensuality (the experience of irrational passionate and emotional movements) replaces actual spirituality (the experience of the intellect working in harmony with the will with the goal of the beatific vision), that one is on the wrong path.”

Why must it be a THIS OR THAT, instead of a THIS AND THAT?

Let’s take courting as an example…..often times it’s the feelings of love, respect, admireation, and desire that draw you to someone in the first place. After the initial attraction you start to discern immediately through observation, prayer and reason how one compliments you. People who have been married a long time will tell you that the emotions of love wane and that’s where the real test of love comes. That’s when one must choose love through the will and reason instead of feelings. However, a married couple will still get to enjoy moments throughout their marriage of that beautiful attraction that once played a large roll in the beginning, only the attraction has transformed into something much deeper and truer and more pure as their love is continually tested.

Why would the Charismatic movement be a COMPLETE disregard for that which draws you toward God? Why do you not see the value in how God can use emotions to lead us to Him and to a deeper level of learning about love? Just because someone has had a dark night of the soul or a dark night of the senses, does not mean that all of a sudden he or she has graduated from all of God’s consolations. NO WAY! Just as the married couple has grueled through choosing love by their will and reason….so must all charismatics growing in love go through such trials and tests. A married couple growing in holiness can be parralleled to us growing in love with God. Both come with Dark nights and consolations dispersed throughout the entire relationship yet both help you to grow deeper and deeper in love.

To say that the Charismatic movement has been about self importance and to hold that claim against the Charismatic movement because of your experience, is like an Atheist saying “All priests are pedophiles and the Catholic church does nothing about it because that’s what I saw on the news.” Both experiences are just not be an accurate description of the situation in it's entirety.

--hide--


Well, Amie,

Can the corporal touch the divine in a sensual fashion? If the answer is no, then saying that one has sensual experience of the Holy Spirit is a complete disregard of the attribute of divinity. There's no in between. It's not like, well, ok, yeah, one can touch the Holy Spirit a little. Either one can, or one can't. If the answer is yes, then divinity has no knowable meaning.

Due to fallen human nature, emotions and passions are no longer subject to the rational human nature. It is easy to be led astray by these and deadly to use them as any sort of standard by which to judge (since they are inconsistent and often inaccurate). That is merely the present human condition. Without good reason supporting the flow of passion or the movement of emotion, there is no good reason to judge these as worthy of consideration beyond the judgment of their inaccuracy.

If a person is going to use passion or emotion as a standard by which to judge accuracy or goodness of anything, he's setting himself up for a sad failure.

I do not see any value in emotion sans right reason. The objective MUST be the standard by which to verify or disqualify the subjective. Merely because I have a dream in which another woman had marital relations with my husband (exempli gratia) and I wake up feeling like he is an adulterer is not valid motivation to begin treating him as an adulterer. Translate the analogy to the notion that something unobserved stirs up one's passions or evokes emotions of pleasantness during a prayer session, this alone is not valid motivation to attribute the feelings to the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of demons or the normal course of human passion or emotion.

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: Chelsea, You stated, “and how pleasant the "spirit&qu...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

Chelsea,

You stated, “and how pleasant the "spirit" feels and such, in complete disregard for the divine attribute of divinity which does not allow us to touch the Holy Spirit sensually.”

Why is it a COMPLETE disregard?

You stated, “My personal belief is that when sensuality (the experience of irrational passionate and emotional movements) replaces actual spirituality (the experience of the intellect working in harmony with the will with the goal of the beatific vision), that one is on the wrong path.”

Why must it be a THIS OR THAT, instead of a THIS AND THAT?

Let’s take courting as an example…..often times it’s the feelings of love, respect, admireation, and desire that draw you to someone in the first place. After the initial attraction you start to discern immediately through observation, prayer and reason how one compliments you. People who have been married a long time will tell you that the emotions of love wane and that’s where the real test of love comes. That’s when one must choose love through the will and reason instead of feelings. However, a married couple will still get to enjoy moments throughout their marriage of that beautiful attraction that once played a large roll in the beginning, only the attraction has transformed into something much deeper and truer and more pure as their love is continually tested.

Why would the Charismatic movement be a COMPLETE disregard for that which draws you toward God? Why do you not see the value in how God can use emotions to lead us to Him and to a deeper level of learning about love? Just because someone has had a dark night of the soul or a dark night of the senses, does not mean that all of a sudden he or she has graduated from all of God’s consolations. NO WAY! Just as the married couple has grueled through choosing love by their will and reason….so must all charismatics growing in love go through such trials and tests. A married couple growing in holiness can be parralleled to us growing in love with God. Both come with Dark nights and consolations dispersed throughout the entire relationship yet both help you to grow deeper and deeper in love.

To say that the Charismatic movement has been about self importance and to hold that claim against the Charismatic movement because of your experience, is like an Atheist saying “All priests are pedophiles and the Catholic church does nothing about it because that’s what I saw on the news.” Both experiences are just not be an accurate description of the situation in it's entirety.

--hide--

Beautifully stated Amie.... and backs up what John Paul II tells us in theology of the body. Our desire for Eros can & does lead us to God. That's what spiritual consolations the Saints describe are, an experience of God which is felt in our human body, emotions & soul. To insist that what is sensual is somehow lesser or to be looked upon with suspicion is Jansenism... a heresy condemned by the Church centuries ago. Unfortunately those thoughts still reign rampant among today's legalistic thinking Christians. God created us to be alive & free. The Charismatic Movement is just one of the ways he is using to help us understand these deep truths... rose

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Well, Amie,Can the corporal touch the divine in a sensual fashion? If the answe...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Well, Amie,

Can the corporal touch the divine in a sensual fashion? If the answer is no, then saying that one has sensual experience of the Holy Spirit is a complete disregard of the attribute of divinity. There's no in between. It's not like, well, ok, yeah, one can touch the Holy Spirit a little. Either one can, or one can't. If the answer is yes, then divinity has no knowable meaning.

Due to fallen human nature, emotions and passions are no longer subject to the rational human nature. It is easy to be led astray by these and deadly to use them as any sort of standard by which to judge (since they are inconsistent and often inaccurate). That is merely the present human condition. Without good reason supporting the flow of passion or the movement of emotion, there is no good reason to judge these as worthy of consideration beyond the judgment of their inaccuracy.

If a person is going to use passion or emotion as a standard by which to judge accuracy or goodness of anything, he's setting himself up for a sad failure.

I do not see any value in emotion sans right reason. The objective MUST be the standard by which to verify or disqualify the subjective. Merely because I have a dream in which another woman had marital relations with my husband (exempli gratia) and I wake up feeling like he is an adulterer is not valid motivation to begin treating him as an adulterer. Translate the analogy to the notion that something unobserved stirs up one's passions or evokes emotions of pleasantness during a prayer session, this alone is not valid motivation to attribute the feelings to the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of demons or the normal course of human passion or emotion.

--hide--
What about Saint Theresa's Ecstasy ??? She is said to have levitated above the ground???

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: What about Saint Theresa's Ecstasy ??? She is said to have levitated above the ground???...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

What about Saint Theresa's Ecstasy ??? She is said to have levitated above the ground???

--hide--

She was not aware that she levitated.

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: What about Saint Theresa's Ecstasy ??? She is said to have levitated above the ground???...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

What about Saint Theresa's Ecstasy ??? She is said to have levitated above the ground???

--hide--

Here are St Teresa of Avila's words in describing her ecstasy...

" I saw an angel beside me... so blazing with light that he seemed to be one of the very highest angels, who appear all on fire... I saw in his hands a long spear of gold, and at the end of the iron there seemed to me to be a little fire. This I thought he thrust through my heart several times (so deeply) that it reached my very entrails. As he withdrew it, I thought it brought them with it, and left me all burning with a great love of God. So great was the pain, that it made me moan; and so utter the sweetness... that there was no wanting it to stop, not is there any contenting the soul with less than God." The Life of Teresa of Jesus, section xxix, 16-17

I believe in these difficult modern times God has graced us with the Charismatic Movement, among many other things, to catch a hold of our attention... to show us that He is the God who fullfills ALL of our desires. The spiritual consolations inherent within the charismatic gifts are just a small inkling of the ultimate reward promised us all...

A spiritual director once told me that the only way we can determine if our prayer is effective is if the fruits make us more faithful, more loving, & more generous with God and others reguardless of how we feel... Sometimes we will "feel" on fire in these beautiful consolations, and othertimes we will suffer the dryest of nights. But if you think about it. Why would the Saints undergo such tremendous sufferings if they hadn't a clue of what was coming. God gives His gifts to shore us up, just as He withdraws them to purify & strengthen us... rose rose rose

02/16/2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: She was not aware that she levitated.
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

She was not aware that she levitated.

--hide--

St. Teresa was very much aware of how her ecstasy made her "feel".

And it had just as much to do with her body as with her soul... rose

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