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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Jan 20th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: I don't know Jerry. I didn't ask because I have heard similar stories before. The la...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

I don't know Jerry. I didn't ask because I have heard similar stories before.

The last couple of paragraphs from the Catholic encyclopedia page about the Gift of Tongues (Glossolaly, glossolalia) is interesting because it compares the Corinthian Abuses to what's happening these days.

www.newadvent.org

--hide--

Two things to keep in mind:

The number of times you heard the stories or the conviction of those relating them are not valid indications of their truth; in fact, the correlation may be negative.

The version of the Catholic Encyclopedia on newadvent.org was written in 1917, so any references tot he present refer to events 95+ years ago.

Jan 20th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) Mike-41230 said: I don't know Jerry. I didn't ask because I...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Quote:
Mike-41230 said:

I don't know Jerry. I didn't ask because I have heard similar stories before.

The last couple of paragraphs from the Catholic encyclopedia page about the Gift of Tongues (Glossolaly, glossolalia) is interesting because it compares the Corinthian Abuses to what's happening these days.

www.newadvent.org


Two things to keep in mind:

The number of times you heard the stories or the conviction of those relating them are not valid indications of their truth; in fact, the correlation may be negative.

The version of the Catholic Encyclopedia on newadvent.org was written in 1917, so any references tot he present refer to events 95+ years ago.

--hide--

I just asked the guy in the other Catholic forum if he can supply a link to it Jerry. But even that may not stand as proof for some people, that a group of Arab Christians asked why those people were praising satan when they heard a group of western charismatics "speaking in tongues." I'm actually wondering how it could be proven. I mean you'd almost have to be an investigative reporter with a video camera ready on the scene when a group of Arab Christians or any Christians happen to say this. And that may not even be proof for some. I'll post the link if he can supply one.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: If you grew up as a Catholic, were you not baptized as a child? And if so, why were you b...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

If you grew up as a Catholic, were you not baptized as a child? And if so, why were you baptized a second time? Christian baptism is Trinitarian (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What does it mean to be baptized in "His Spirit" (apparently omitting the Father and Son)?

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I think the word "baptism" is what is confusing you. Charismatics know that being "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" is not a second sacramental baptism. So, try to get past the semantics.

I would like to share my experience. I grew up in a very traditional family who was completely against anything charismatic. I heard it all, "Speaking in tongues is from the devil, Charismatics are basically protestants, when you pray to God you kneel, there's no reverence in praise and worship…..you name it!

One day in college, I started thinking about the Holy Spirit and realized I didn’t know much about Him. I knew He was a dove, and I knew He descended on Pentecost lol.... So I just said a quick prayer to our Lord, "God, I have no idea who this Holy Spirit is, will you please teach me about Him." All God needed was a small opening and He took me on an amazing journey!

My first praise and worship meeting was very uncomfortable for me especially because I had been told my whole life that praying in tongues was from the devil. I refused to stand up, I refused to lift up my arms, I refused to attempt tongues, I basically went with my heart closed. So, I sat there and prayed silently to the Lord expressing to him my frustrations. I had a woman ask me if she could pray over me and I accepted….still not really sure why. And when she started to pray over me it was like all of my frustration and confusion completely left my body and in it's place I felt a piece that I had NEVER experienced before! The closest I can come to explaining that experience is it felt like I just finished receiving a full body massage x 10. When she was done praying over me I didn’t want to move. My thoughts at that moment were that the devil gives you confusion and frustration and only God gives you peace! That was the start of my journey into learning about those Crazy Charismatics…...

After I was "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" I experienced an insatiable hunger to read the whole bible. (Prior to that, I could have cared less about the bible. Whenever I attempted to read it, it never made sense.) I just couldn’t put the bible down. I carried it with me everywhere! With that hunger to know the bible He also gave me a gift of teaching the bible to others. And the last thing I ever wanted to be was a teacher! (For real.) So basically, my heart took a 180. It was the Charismatic movement that brought me into a real relationship with the Lord.

I don't consider myself a Charismatic. I consider myself Catholic! As Catholics there is a beauty and wholeness to how complete our faith is. The Charismatic side to the faith is an essential side of the faith. I believe it was JPII who talked about the 4 essential pillars of our spirituality being, "Charismatic, Marion, Contemplative, and Eucharistic." They are as essential to our spirit as oxygen, food, and shelter are to our bodies. You wouldn’t say I prefer oxygen the most so I’ll just throw away the others. Because then you would starve to death or die from the elements. Just as you shouldn't say, “I want the contemplative and not the Marian because my spirituality fits that more” or else you are crippling yourself in the fullness of your faith and in your relationship with God.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: The last couple of paragraphs from the Catholic encyclopedia page about the Gift of Tongues (Glosso...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

The last couple of paragraphs from the Catholic encyclopedia page about the Gift of Tongues (Glossolaly, glossolalia) is interesting because it compares the Corinthian Abuses to what's happening these days.

www.newadvent.org

--hide--

So, I have my bible open and reading as the writer's quoting. Hmmmm........Mike, I challenge you to open your scripture and read it as he quotes it for yourself. Read the whole thing in context. A lot of what he is saying is his own interpretation and he adds lots of his own opinions in the matter. Read it and tell me what you think.

I'm quoting the write of this section of newadvent, "There is enough in St. Paul to show us that the Corinthian peculiarities were ignoble accretions and abuses. They made of "tongues" a source of schism in the Church and of scandal without (14:23). The charism had deteriorated into a mixture of meaningless inarticulate gabble (9, 10) with an element of uncertain sounds (7, 8), which sometimes might be construed as little short of blasphemous (12:3). "

Here's what those verses actually say, "In the law it is written, 'By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.' Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. (By the way he is talking about the MINISTRY of tongues, not the personal gift of tongues.) If, therefore, the whole Church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you." Cor 14:20-25

Where was tongues made a source of Schism in the Church? He kind of exaggerated there!

1 Cor 12:3 states, "Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the spirit of God ever says, "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."

So how does this prove that speaking in tongues is "a little short of blasphemous?" The funny part is, right after Paul says this exact verse in 1 Cor 12:3 he then goes into talking about the ministry of speaking in tongues and part of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. and states, "All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." In fact, this give more umph FOR speaking in tongues and not AGAINST speaking in tongues.

Also, if Paul was so against speaking in tongues why would he say, "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified." 1 Cor 14:5 (How come the writer on new advent didn't quote this verse?) It is true that tongues is the lowest ranking spiritual gifts. Paul says because speaking in tongues edifies us personally (here he is talking about the personal kind of speaking in tongues and not the ministry of speaking in tongues) Paul seems to be saying that both are good but one is a greater good because it edifies the whole church.

So no where do I hear Paul stating that people shouldn't speak in tongues….but instead I hear him saying to be discerning how and when you use it. Please read it for yourself. Start with 1 Cor 12 and go all the way through ch 14.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: The last couple of paragraphs from the Catholic encyclopedia page about the Gift of Tongues (Glosso...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

The last couple of paragraphs from the Catholic encyclopedia page about the Gift of Tongues (Glossolaly, glossolalia) is interesting because it compares the Corinthian Abuses to what's happening these days.

www.newadvent.org

--hide--

I'm suspicious of this writer to say the least!

I am completely open to researching this. I am curious who the writer is on this particular topic. I will also ask some of the scholars I know from Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit on the topic and get back to you.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: I'm suspicious of this writer to say the least! I am completely open ...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

I'm suspicious of this writer to say the least!

I am completely open to researching this. I am curious who the writer is on this particular topic. I will also ask some of the scholars I know from Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit on the topic and get back to you.

--hide--

Wow, these are some really old sources.........

CORLUY in JAUGEY, Dict. apolegetique (Paris, 1889); MELVILLE, Observationes theologico-exegeticae de dono linguarum etc. (Basle, 1816); HILGENFELD, Die Glossolalie in der alten Kirche (Leipzig, 1850); FOUARD, St. Paul, ses missions (Paris, 1892); BLEEK, Ueber die Gabe etc. in Theologische Studien und Kritiken, II (1829); REUSS, La glossolalie in Revue de theologie, III (Strasburg, 1851); SHEPPARD, The Gift of Tongues in the Early Church in Amer. Eccl. Rev., XLII (Philadelphia, May, 1910), 513-22; REILLY, The Gift of Tongues, What was it? in Amer. Eccl. Rev XLIII (Philadelphia, July, 1910), 3-25.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: I just asked the guy in the other Catholic forum if he can supply a link to it Jerry. But ...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

I just asked the guy in the other Catholic forum if he can supply a link to it Jerry. But even that may not stand as proof for some people, that a group of Arab Christians asked why those people were praising satan when they heard a group of western charismatics "speaking in tongues." I'm actually wondering how it could be proven. I mean you'd almost have to be an investigative reporter with a video camera ready on the scene when a group of Arab Christians or any Christians happen to say this. And that may not even be proof for some. I'll post the link if he can supply one.

--hide--

Mike....there is such a thing as speaking in an anti-tongue. I have not heard it, but my priest (Fr. Ed Fride from Christ the King in Ann Arbor) has. He says it sounds like finger nails on a chalk board for the soul. Speaking in real tongues sounds more like an angelic language.

If you are interested, I know an African priest who didn't believe in tongues until he visit Christ the King. His personal testimony, in short - while in mass he was privately asking the Lord to prove to him that speaking in tongues is from Him and immediately the person in the pew in front of him (who was speaking in tongues) started speaking in the priests African dialect from back home. He understood every word and it was a beautiful prayer to God. He approached the man after mass and found out this guy was not aware that he was speaking in that particular dialect and confirmed that he didn’t know how to speak any other language except English....he was simply praying in tongues like he always does.

I don’t know if he has a link for his conversion story or not, but I am sure I could find his testimony if he does.

I'm going to be playfully snotty here and repeat back to you….. “And that may not even be proof for some.”

Jan 29th 2013 new

I'm involved in a Charismatic group. I find it refreshing, enjoyable and useful to spiritual development. I don't understand how people can be so anti these activities when now more than ever we need such gifts operating in the Church. They are meant for spiritual warfare and our own spiritual needs, in our secular, atheist and so gravely immoral society, this is what we need! Soliders for Christ who understand the battle field and are wearing the right armour, weilding the right weapons!

With that said, I beleive that these groups need to be under the direct supervision of wise Priests who know their stuff, and operate under Church teaching. Due in part to the size of these groups, they are often classed as non-denom to pull numbers in. As a result you also tend to get more speakers from non-Catholic backgrounds influencing Catholics who's faith isn't so strong, those people then tend to drift off into other groups run by non-Catholic churches to keep in touch with the people they've been making.

I've seen it happen to quite a few people.

I'm also a huge fan of the Latin form of the Mass, reception of Communion on the knees/tongue and other old skool practices. The two work well together. Though I have to admit, I'd rather they didn't put "rock" music in the Mass.

Charismaticism is just another area of of the faith in practice. Kind of like how a military force has different sections; airforce, navy, army. As long as we're all obeying orders and following the plan it works out okay in the end.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: I'm involved in a Charismatic group. I find it refreshing, enjoyable and useful to spiritual ...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

I'm involved in a Charismatic group. I find it refreshing, enjoyable and useful to spiritual development. I don't understand how people can be so anti these activities when now more than ever we need such gifts operating in the Church. They are meant for spiritual warfare and our own spiritual needs, in our secular, atheist and so gravely immoral society, this is what we need! Soliders for Christ who understand the battle field and are wearing the right armour, weilding the right weapons!

With that said, I beleive that these groups need to be under the direct supervision of wise Priests who know their stuff, and operate under Church teaching. Due in part to the size of these groups, they are often classed as non-denom to pull numbers in. As a result you also tend to get more speakers from non-Catholic backgrounds influencing Catholics who's faith isn't so strong, those people then tend to drift off into other groups run by non-Catholic churches to keep in touch with the people they've been making.

I've seen it happen to quite a few people.

I'm also a huge fan of the Latin form of the Mass, reception of Communion on the knees/tongue and other old skool practices. The two work well together. Though I have to admit, I'd rather they didn't put "rock" music in the Mass.

Charismaticism is just another area of of the faith in practice. Kind of like how a military force has different sections; airforce, navy, army. As long as we're all obeying orders and following the plan it works out okay in the end.

--hide--


I'm in complete agreement with you. However, it seems from various posters that I've read on this thread and others, what charismaticism apparently means in the USA is unfortunately not necessarily what it means in Canada, Great Britain, Australia or New Zealand.

Like I said before, I can only speak to my personal experiences, so it is pleasant to hear when other people have had spiritually beneficial experience in the charismatic communities.

Jan 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Amie-755944 said: I think the word "baptism" is what is confusing you. Charismatics know...
(Quote) Amie-755944 said:

I think the word "baptism" is what is confusing you. Charismatics know that being "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" is not a second sacramental baptism. So, try to get past the semantics.

I would like to share my experience. I grew up in a very traditional family who was completely against anything charismatic. I heard it all, "Speaking in tongues is from the devil, Charismatics are basically protestants, when you pray to God you kneel, there's no reverence in praise and worship…..you name it!

One day in college, I started thinking about the Holy Spirit and realized I didn’t know much about Him. I knew He was a dove, and I knew He descended on Pentecost lol.... So I just said a quick prayer to our Lord, "God, I have no idea who this Holy Spirit is, will you please teach me about Him." All God needed was a small opening and He took me on an amazing journey!

My first praise and worship meeting was very uncomfortable for me especially because I had been told my whole life that praying in tongues was from the devil. I refused to stand up, I refused to lift up my arms, I refused to attempt tongues, I basically went with my heart closed. So, I sat there and prayed silently to the Lord expressing to him my frustrations. I had a woman ask me if she could pray over me and I accepted….still not really sure why. And when she started to pray over me it was like all of my frustration and confusion completely left my body and in it's place I felt a piece that I had NEVER experienced before! The closest I can come to explaining that experience is it felt like I just finished receiving a full body massage x 10. When she was done praying over me I didn’t want to move. My thoughts at that moment were that the devil gives you confusion and frustration and only God gives you peace! That was the start of my journey into learning about those Crazy Charismatics…...

After I was "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" I experienced an insatiable hunger to read the whole bible. (Prior to that, I could have cared less about the bible. Whenever I attempted to read it, it never made sense.) I just couldn’t put the bible down. I carried it with me everywhere! With that hunger to know the bible He also gave me a gift of teaching the bible to others. And the last thing I ever wanted to be was a teacher! (For real.) So basically, my heart took a 180. It was the Charismatic movement that brought me into a real relationship with the Lord.

I don't consider myself a Charismatic. I consider myself Catholic! As Catholics there is a beauty and wholeness to how complete our faith is. The Charismatic side to the faith is an essential side of the faith. I believe it was JPII who talked about the 4 essential pillars of our spirituality being, "Charismatic, Marion, Contemplative, and Eucharistic." They are as essential to our spirit as oxygen, food, and shelter are to our bodies. You wouldn’t say I prefer oxygen the most so I’ll just throw away the others. Because then you would starve to death or die from the elements. Just as you shouldn't say, “I want the contemplative and not the Marian because my spirituality fits that more” or else you are crippling yourself in the fullness of your faith and in your relationship with God.

--hide--

What a beautiful witness Amie...

Thank you for sharing it.... clap clap clap

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