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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Jan 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Therese-668052 said: Let me post this reference before sharing. ...This brings us now to the relationshi...
(Quote) Therese-668052 said:


Let me post this reference before sharing.

...This brings us now to the relationship addressed in Jeremys question: what is the degree of consanguinity between two cousins? Well, lets imagine Cousin Jenny and Cousin Mike. Jennys mother, Beth, is the sister of Mikes father, David. The common ancestor(s) in this case is the parent(s) of Beth and David. If we count all the persons involved in this relationship, minus the common ancestor, we find four persons involved. So these two cousins who in our parlance are first cousins are related in the fourth degree of the collateral line.

So can Cousin Jenny validly marry Cousin Mike? Not according to canon 1091.2, which says marriages are invalid up to and including the fourth degree. First cousins, therefore, cannot marry in the Church.

catholicexchange.com

What year this canon law was made?

If it is older then 10 years then my parents of 50 years marriage wouldn't be able to marry in church also my sister and cousin (10 years ago wouldn't be able to marry in church)

To clarify my father's father and my mother's mother are brother and sister. My sister's father and cousin's mother are sister and brother. They are all married in church

--hide--

The current code of canon law was promulgated in 1983. The previous code, promulgated in 1917, counts the degrees differently (canon 96), and has a slightly different restriction (canon 1076). Both code absolutely prohibit marriage, even if there is doubt about the relationship, in the direct line or in the first degree collaterally (brother and sister). Dispensations may be granted for more distant relationships that are prohibited under cans 1091 (1983) or 1076 (1917).

One can't use specific situations like this as a guide to interpreting the law, as there could be information that is unknown to you (e.g., dispensations granted) or the person who performed the marriages may have either not known, misinterpreted, or ignored the law.

If I understand correctly, both situations involved first cousins marrying, which is invalid under either code. My recommendation would be for those involved to speak with a canon lawyer to determine what the options are. My guess is they could get a dispensation now, then have the marriage convalidated, if that is even required. But best to go to the experts. Keep in mind that many parish priests are not familiar with canon law and it is, unfortunately, not uncommon for them to either be misinformed or simply make things up on the fly.

Jan 11th 2013 new

(Quote) John-746882 said: I found this confusing for a time too but once removed means one generation removed, either up a generati...
(Quote) John-746882 said: I found this confusing for a time too but once removed means one generation removed, either up a generation or down a generation. So your parents' first cousins are your first cousins once removed, and you are their first cousin once removed. The children of your parents' first cousins are your second cousins.
--hide--


Ok, I think I got it, it means a generation either up or down.


Thanks, John.

Jan 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: The current code of canon law was promulgated in 1983. The previous code, promulgated in 1917, co...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

The current code of canon law was promulgated in 1983. The previous code, promulgated in 1917, counts the degrees differently (canon 96), and has a slightly different restriction (canon 1076). Both code absolutely prohibit marriage, even if there is doubt about the relationship, in the direct line or in the first degree collaterally (brother and sister). Dispensations may be granted for more distant relationships that are prohibited under cans 1091 (1983) or 1076 (1917).

One can't use specific situations like this as a guide to interpreting the law, as there could be information that is unknown to you (e.g., dispensations granted) or the person who performed the marriages may have either not known, misinterpreted, or ignored the law.

If I understand correctly, both situations involved first cousins marrying, which is invalid under either code. My recommendation would be for those involved to speak with a canon lawyer to determine what the options are. My guess is they could get a dispensation now, then have the marriage convalidated, if that is even required. But best to go to the experts. Keep in mind that many parish priests are not familiar with canon law and it is, unfortunately, not uncommon for them to either be misinformed or simply make things up on the fly.

--hide--


In my country consanguinity is declining nowadays for so many reasons especially in the cities and the villages close to the cities but in the past this type of marriage was so common.

I did some searches and here what i found. It is talking about my country.

"In the past, marriage within the lineage, especially to first cousins or other close paternal kin, was the rule. This provided the woman the security of living among the people with whom she was raised and also tended to keep property inheritance within the family. Among Muslims, there is traditional preference for marriage to a patrilineal first cousin; in some conservative Muslim villages, the choice is considered obligatory. In Roman Catholic canon law the marriage of persons within the same bloodline or of persons within the third degree of collateral relationship is explicitly forbidden. In Lebanon a dispensation for such marriages can be obtained and they are not uncommon."

As you said Jerry, a dispensation must be obtained i am sure they got it to be able to marry in church otherwise marriage wouldn't happened because in my church they never do things against the Vatican canon law. When i call my parents on Sunday i will ask them whether 50 years ago they got dispensation or not. i just sent a message to my sister she will answer me in the morning so i will update my post.

Jan 13th 2013 new

whoa whoa, i didn't mean for my question to get this involved...please allow me to respond to questions addressed to me, and then take off on whatever tangent you'd like
Marianne-100218 said:
What do you mean by "second cousin?"
--I looked at some chart online that placed her as my second cousin. (It was wrong)
Charles-512043 said:
The children of my parents' first cousins.
--As you say, she isn't that. She is my birthmother's first cousin. (See below)
Andrea-368827 said:
I think it is allowed with a dispensation.
--I did a small amount of research and found the same thing (but the relation isn't accurate)...it doesn't matter anyways. =P (see below)
Marianne-100218 said:
I have learned that they are your "first cousins, once removed." This is confusing.
--I did a bit more research and found out the same thing. Which means that this is all nothing more than a fallacy for me =). I'm glad to have this cleared up for myself though.

Jan 13th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-926548 said: whoa whoa, i didn't mean for my question to get this involved...please allow me to respond to ...
(Quote) Paul-926548 said:

whoa whoa, i didn't mean for my question to get this involved...please allow me to respond to questions addressed to me, and then take off on whatever tangent you'd like
Marianne-100218 said:
What do you mean by "second cousin?"
--I looked at some chart online that placed her as my second cousin. (It was wrong)
Charles-512043 said:
The children of my parents' first cousins.
--As you say, she isn't that. She is my birthmother's first cousin. (See below)
Andrea-368827 said:
I think it is allowed with a dispensation.
--I did a small amount of research and found the same thing (but the relation isn't accurate)...it doesn't matter anyways. =P (see below)
Marianne-100218 said:
I have learned that they are your "first cousins, once removed." This is confusing.
--I did a bit more research and found out the same thing. Which means that this is all nothing more than a fallacy for me =). I'm glad to have this cleared up for myself though.

--hide--

A first cousin once removed is the fifth degree of consanguinity in the collateral line (1983 code), which is not precluded from marriage by canon law; civil law will vary depending on the state. Such a marriage would not have been permitted without a dispensation under the old (1917) code.

Even if legal, such a marriage could result in familial problems, especially if both branches of the family are close.

Jan 13th 2013 new

I think that John is giving you Very good advice - I was in love with someone (he was married) I fought through my feelings - he knew about my feelings - we talked it through - I had to step out of wanting to follow my emotions. I realized that he was right sometimes being friends is just the better way to go... we are very good friends - My point is - it is a relationship that was forbidden so this made me want it even more ... So glad now that I was able to make the right decision ....Good Luck and God Bless

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