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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Jan 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: You forget, as it appears most politicians and most people today also forget, that one of...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

You forget, as it appears most politicians and most people today also forget, that one of our founding documents does in fact recognize God explicitly.

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The Constitution was written by Deists, not Catholics, or Protestants, and the god they mentioned, and this only in the Declaration of Independence, was Locke's "god of nature." They did not want the Republic to profess the Christian religion, where it would profess the Trinity and declare Jesus Christ to be the King of this nation, or any religion at all.

There was a group, the National Reform Association, that lamented the Deistic Constitution that made the U.S. entirely unconfessional, and from reviewing the history and the frank admissions of the Founders that the nation was founded on godless Enlightenment and not Protestant Christian principles. The National Reform Association saw this fact as the key flaw to the Constitution that lead to the War Between the States.

One such admission by the generation of the Founders lies in the declaration of the U.S. Senate in Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli, approved by John Adams on June 10, 1797, that:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Mussulmen (Moslems) ... it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

yale.edu

The National Reform Association sought to add an amendment to the Preamble of the Constitution confessing Christ the King of the nations. Their proposed rewrite went as follows:

"We the People of the United States, [humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government, and] in order to form a more perfect union..."[Proceedings of the NRA, 1872]

This was tabled by Congress in 1874. In the report of the House Judiciary Committee that rejected this out of hand on February 18, 1874, it was declared that, after due examination of the record of the debates at the Constitutional Convention, it was revealed that:

The fathers of the Republic in the convention which framed the Constitution...decided that this country, the foundation of whose government they were laying, was to be the home of the oppressed of all the nations of the Earth, whether Christian or Pagan, and in full realization of the dangers which the union between Church and state had imposed upon so many nations of the Old World, [decided] with great unanimity that it was inexpedient to put anything in the Constitution or frame of government which might be construed to be a reference to any religious creed or doctrine.["House Reports," Vol I, 43rd Congress, 1st Session, Report No. 143, cited in Liberty, the God that Failed, C. Ferrara]

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Jan 11th 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: These are excellent points.I am criticized whenever I opine that the democr...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




These are excellent points.

I am criticized whenever I opine that the democracy that the Founding Fathers laid out in the eighteenth century was unique to that time and place, and its success over two hundred years ago hardly means that it must be successful today. You had northern european protestants (British Anglicans and German Lutherans) who were the bulk of your citizenry; if they didn't understand each other in a literal sense because of the different languages, they understood each other in a practical sense.

The country was far more rural and far more homogeonous than our country is today. When you lived on a farm and you could sustain a family with your hands, you really had no use for government. Put that same family in an urban area where one commutes to a job, and the loss of that job represents a real threat to the welfare of one's family. Hence, the demand for government assistance.

The democratic republic that the Founding Fathers laid out with our constitution did not even last a human lifetime; Federalism replaced it after the Civil War.

The question that always follows these conversations is, "but what do we replace this with?"






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Many Traditionalists prefer Monarchism, but there is nothing inherently unChristian about Republics, or even Constitutional Monarchy, as England established under the Magna Carta when it was still Catholic.

The key is legitimacy, and recovery of the sense that authority comes from Christ, and that those that rule do so with the organic aid of the Church as the Soul of society, and are accountable to Christ for their decisions. It was requires that we recover that real liberty is the freedom to perform with virtue, to do the right and the good, and that any law that would be enforced that goes against Divine or Natural Law must be opposed because it is, as St. Augustine said, no law at all.

It may also help to realize that many saints and fathers of the Church have said that the age of the Republics will come to an end with the rise of a great catholic king, who will be annointed by a holy pope, and that this would happen just as it seems that the world is collapsing and the Churches enemies have destroyed the Papacy by exiling the Pontiff from Rome. A type of this event is foreshadowed by the removal of Pope Pius VI by Napoleon in 1799 from Rome in a cart, leading to his death six weeks later. Those in France called him "Pope Pius VI the Last", thinking that they destroyed the Church by this act.

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Jan 11th 2013 new
(Quote) William-607613 said: Well, the democratic republic that became the democracy (in the practical sense) we have today.
(Quote) William-607613 said:




Well, the democratic republic that became the democracy (in the practical sense) we have today.

As I pointed out, it didn't even last a human lifetime.

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As someone already pointed out democracy = mobocracy.

The American republic seems to be teetering dangerously close to something akin to the final act of the Roman Republic.
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Jan 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Senators were never appointed by the President, they have always been elected, originally...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Senators were never appointed by the President, they have always been elected, originally by the Legislatures of their state. The XVII amendment changed that to election by the voters of the State.

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I stand corrected, on the details. But the point remains the same. Having been elected by legislators, rather than popular vote, fulfills Bellarmine's notion of the Aristocracy form of government in his blended system.

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Jan 12th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: As someone already pointed out democracy = mobocracy. The American republic seems to be t...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

As someone already pointed out democracy = mobocracy.

The American republic seems to be teetering dangerously close to something akin to the final act of the Roman Republic.
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I think we are going to be the shortest living free nation ever. This would seem to be the case, with the way things are going.

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Jan 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: I think we are going to be the shortest living free nation ever. This would seem to be the case,...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

I think we are going to be the shortest living free nation ever. This would seem to be the case, with the way things are going.

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Most democracies only last about 200 years. Ours had an extra generation to it.

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Jan 12th 2013 new
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said: I think we are going to be the shortest living free nation ever. This would seem to be the case, with the way ...
(Quote) Thomas-699657 said:

I think we are going to be the shortest living free nation ever. This would seem to be the case, with the way things are going.

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Madison noted that no democracy had ever lasted longer than 200 years. We've made it 236 years.
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Jan 12th 2013 new
Yes, and the English thought that they had proper clIam to much of France. Lest we fall ino the atheist or deist conclusion that all arrangements are "only from us," remember that our God did answer the controversy by raising up a saint to restore the legitimate order. That saint, it should be remembered, is Joan of Arc, who led a Catholic army for the Roi, not the "nation" of France in the social compact nationalist sense.
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Jan 12th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: As someone already pointed out democracy = mobocracy. The American republic seems to be t...
(Quote) John-220051 said:

As someone already pointed out democracy = mobocracy.

The American republic seems to be teetering dangerously close to something akin to the final act of the Roman Republic.
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The looming financial crisis is a point of similarity, but there is not an all-powerful military with a loyalty to a particular general instead of the state.

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Jan 12th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: The looming financial crisis is a point of similarity, but there is not an all-powerful military...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



The looming financial crisis is a point of similarity, but there is not an all-powerful military with a loyalty to a particular general instead of the state.

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But you do have an all-powerful media complex that pulls the strings on what today's Americans think, read, and believe.

en.wikipedia.org
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