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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: So you know better how to lead the Catholic church that John Paul II? I seriously doubt that. ...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

So you know better how to lead the Catholic church that John Paul II? I seriously doubt that.


Ed

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I never said that Ed, we obviously have different viewpoints, let's acknowledge that first.

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Feb 1st 2013 new

For curiosity sake I asked whether the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass in a Traditional Catholic forum that I am a member of. I got some good replies. Two eye witness accounts so far in less than a day. I know there will be at least one more when another old guy sees the thread too. And a few people verified that the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass Liturgy in their old Missals. I'll just post the replies that I got here.

1st eye witness account
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I am 70 years old ... I remembered it because I loved it so:

"In Him was life, & the life was the light of men; and the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness knew it not. ..........
He came unto His own & His own knew Him not."

I loved that gospel & when the new Mass came along without it & so many other things--the prayers at the foot of the Altar before the actual Mass began, the Leonine prayers, the Roman Canon ... it was hard on people like myself, who had been raised with the Holy,. Solemn Tridentine Mass.
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2nd eye witness account
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Well, I'm here today and even tho' I wasn't Catholic yet, I often attended Mass in Catholic Churches in the early 60's before the introduction of the reforms, and I never heard a Mass without the Last Gospel.

... the Last Gospel, and the Prayers at the foot of the Altar, were the first casualties of the reforms.
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1st verification that the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass Liturgy in old Missals. This one is fabulous because it shows that the Last Gospel was the result of lay piety.
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Magnifique! I had forgotten I have a copy of "The Holy Mass" by Dom Prosper Gueranger. This was written in the 1800's.

It deals with the Last Gospel starting on pg 191 of this printing (re-printing, not a vintage).

We read:

Quote
"The Blessing having been given, the Priest goes to the Gospel side of the Altar, and there reads the beginning of the Gospel according to St. John.
...

But why is this reading made? the custom originates from the Middle Ages. At that period, as in earlier times also, the faithful had a great devotion to the having a portion of the Gospel read over them, and the commencement of that of St. John was a special favourite. Demands at last became so multiplied, that the number of Priests was insufficient to satisfy all: to simplify the matter, it was decided to recite it over all there assembled, at the end of the Mass. The devotion of the faithful, therefore, alone originated this addition."
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2nd verification from old Missal
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I have a missal dated from 1852 and it has the last gospel.
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3rd verification from old Missal
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You have given me reason to get my aunt's old missal out.. :)It's a Lasance Missal published in 1908 by the Benziger Brothers, Imprimatur by John Farley. My aunt received it for her First Communion in 1921. She used it throughout her life & especially during her long battle with cancer. It is both a prayer book & a missal & it DOES include the Last Gospel
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4th verification from old Missal
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The oldest missal I had was a (I think a St Andrew variation) from 1937, and it was definitely there.
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5th verification from old Missal
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Looking at my St. Joseph's Daily Missal, copyright 1956, what do I see before the prayers after Low Mass? The Last Gospel.
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6th verification (mine)
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I just bought a new edition of The Roman Missal (1962) last week and the Last Gospel is on pages 970, 971, 972 and 973, Latin on the left with English on the right. At the front of my Roman Missal it says "The text of this edition is based upon the Daily Missal and Liturgical Manual (16th edition) published by Laverty & Sons, Leeds in 1960 ...". Mine is the Baronius Press version.
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7th verification
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A friend that has The Roman Missal (1962) Angelus Press version also verified that it has the Last Gospel.
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That all said one poster in the other forum did say this, "If anybody has the 1962 Roman Missal, the Last Gospel is not included (1969 Edition)." And two posters in the other forum said that they have been to Masses where the priest says the Last Gospel silently and pretty quickly. Either of these may be wherein lies the confusion. I am not posting this to slight anyone or to prove anyone wrong. Just that people should know that the Last Gospel was indeed part of the Latin Liturgy before the reforms and had been, as stated earlier since 1570. That is all that I am going to say about this. God bless.

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Feb 1st 2013 new

I should have waited 5 minutes more before posting the above post cause the 3rd eye witness account to the Last Gospel being a part of the Latin Mass before the reforms just added his account. And it is too good not to add it.

3rd eye witness account
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I remember the Last Gospel from about the same time as Joni. I also remember needing to squirt and hoping the priest would hurry a little more. We had to wait for the Mass to end so we could line up and cross the street and file into our rooms.This can be a problem for a boy in winter after walking a mile in the snow. He may only remeber the Mass from 1965, that's when the Last Gospel was dropped. I have heard several folks say they remember the TLM, but in fact are remembering the 1965 Mass. In his defense there are many things which disappear from memory as we age.

tim
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Thanks should go to the good folks at the Fish Eaters Traditional Catholic Forum
catholicforum.fisheaters.com

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: So you know better how to lead the Catholic church that John Paul II? I seriously doubt that. ...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

So you know better how to lead the Catholic church that John Paul II? I seriously doubt that.


Ed

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He said nothing of the kind.Lets be accurate now Ed.

LOCKED
Feb 1st 2013 new

Yep.... Different viewpoints. Definitely.


I try to be obedient to the current pope, the "Vicar of Christ" and successor of St. Peter the Apostle. As Webster's dictionary states... Catholic doctrine regards the pope as the successor of St. Peter the Apostle and accords him supreme jurisdiction over the church in matters of faith and morals, as well as in church discipline and government.


www.merriam-webster.com


It seems to me that God (through the ages) has placed the pope (whomever he may be at any time in history) in that position for a good reason. I suppose that I could deviate and make up my own rules (many do), but then at what point do I become less of a member of the Catholic Church and more a member of the "Church of Ed"?... And when I become more a member of the "Church of Ed", do I get to proclaim myself pope? From where would this authority come? I know that Pope Benedict receives his authority from Jesus Christ, past down through the ages, starting with St. Peter. That seems like a good and valid reason to follow Pope Benedict (or Pope John Paul II, during his papacy).


Just my thoughts.


Ed

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Feb 1st 2013 new

Well gosh....


John wrote ....


>>> "...I believe this act undermined the Catholic state and opened the doors to the false ideology of multiculturalism and egalitarianism...".


>>> "It also opened the flood gates to Muslim immigrants who openly organize against the church, plus their threat to western culture."


>>> "...Pope Pius X was clearly right in his views while Pope John Paul II was not. I hope that John Paul II will be remembered for the destructive liberal policies he preached and how they brought a spiritual decline the church during his reign."


I wrote that John seems to know better (than JPII) how to lead the Catholic Church, and you wrote that "He said nothing of the kind."


It seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.


Ed

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Yep.... Different viewpoints. Definitely. I try to be obedient to the current pope, the &q...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Yep.... Different viewpoints. Definitely.


I try to be obedient to the current pope, the "Vicar of Christ" and successor of St. Peter the Apostle. As Webster's dictionary states... Catholic doctrine regards the pope as the successor of St. Peter the Apostle and accords him supreme jurisdiction over the church in matters of faith and morals, as well as in church discipline and government.


www.merriam-webster.com


It seems to me that God (through the ages) has placed the pope (whomever he may be at any time in history) in that position for a good reason. I suppose that I could deviate and make up my own rules (many do), but then at what point do I become less of a member of the Catholic Church and more a member of the "Church of Ed"?... And when I become more a member of the "Church of Ed", do I get to proclaim myself pope? From where would this authority come? I know that Pope Benedict receives his authority from Jesus Christ, past down through the ages, starting with St. Peter. That seems like a good and valid reason to follow Pope Benedict (or Pope John Paul II, during his papacy).


Just my thoughts.


Ed

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There are clearly some discrepancies with some of the actions of Pope JP ll,as compared to those of his predecessor's .Like kissing the Koran for instance.To be shocked by this in no way means that anyone is questioning his authority as Pope.

LOCKED
Feb 1st 2013 new

Just for reference - Some synonyms of "discrepancy"....
difference,
inconsistency, incongruity,
disagreement, discordance, contrariety, variance,
variation.


I would be seriously surprised if there were not significant discrepancies between each of the 12 original apostles, each compared to another of them... And Jesus hand-picked each of the original 12 apostles. After all, each person is a very unique individual with different genetics, temperament, family life and life experiences. If Jesus had wanted/needed each pope to be completely consistent with all the others, He probably would have devised some sort of mystical way to make each pope a clone of all the others (preceding or succeeding that pope) and with exactly the same life experiences.... But He did not do this.


I'm sure that when Jesus founded the Church, He knew that there would be discrepancies among each of the popes to follow. Just because there are discrepancies between two particular popes does not make one right and another wrong. Perhaps God had a hand in making each of them right for their time and their reign as Vicar of Christ.


If one compares the Catholic Church to a growing human being, certainly we should not expect an infant to be the exactly the same as when he/she is a mature man/woman... yet that mature man/woman is certainly the same person as the infant, only considerably older and with much more life experience. So it is with the Catholic Church.


Discrepancy is not necessarily a bad thing. It is difference. It variation. I am quite certain that God expects this when He elevates each successive person to lead His Catholic Church on Earth. He did, after all, create each of them, uniquely, from nothing, exactly for that position. Perhaps we should give Him the benefit of our doubt.


Just my thoughts.


Ed



LOCKED
Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Just for reference - Som...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Just for reference - Some synonyms of "discrepancy"....
difference,
inconsistency, incongruity,
disagreement, discordance, contrariety, variance,
variation.


I would be seriously surprised if there were not significant discrepancies between each of the 12 original apostles, each compared to another of them... And Jesus hand-picked each of the original 12 apostles. After all, each person is a very unique individual with different genetics, temperament, family life and life experiences. If Jesus had wanted/needed each pope to be completely consistent with all the others, He probably would have devised some sort of mystical way to make each pope a clone of all the others (preceding or succeeding that pope) and with exactly the same life experiences.... But He did not do this.


I'm sure that when Jesus founded the Church, He knew that there would be discrepancies among each of the popes to follow. Just because there are discrepancies between two particular popes does not make one right and another wrong. Perhaps God had a hand in making each of them right for their time and their reign as Vicar of Christ.


If one compares the Catholic Church to a growing human being, certainly we should not expect an infant to be the exactly the same as when he/she is a mature man/woman... yet that mature man/woman is certainly the same person as the infant, only considerably older and with much more life experience. So it is with the Catholic Church.


Discrepancy is not necessarily a bad thing. It is difference. It variation. I am quite certain that God expects this when He elevates each successive person to lead His Catholic Church on Earth. He did, after all, create each of them, uniquely, from nothing, exactly for that position. Perhaps we should give Him the benefit of our doubt.


Just my thoughts.


Ed



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A Pope kissing the Koran is Shocking to a Catholic.Just saying.

LOCKED
Feb 2nd 2013 new

Aside from the particular context of the "Koran-kissing incident", and what JPII may or may not have been trying to convey with this action....


I believe that St. Peter (our first Pope) denied Christ three times!.... and in front of a whole bunch of witnesses, no less! Certainly, that is a WHOPPER of a "discrepancy" if I ever heard one. Yet, Jesus specifically selected St. Peter to be the head of His Catholic Church. Maybe Jesus made a poor choice 2000 years ago. scratchchin Or perhaps He really knew was He was doing. scratchchin I suspect that He knew what He was doing.... Just sayin.


Even if there was (or was not) some discrepancy with that particular action of JPII, I suspect that he was selected as Vicar of Christ for very good reasons.


Ed

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