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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: A Pope kissing the Koran is Shocking to a Catholic.Just saying.
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

A Pope kissing the Koran is Shocking to a Catholic.Just saying.

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Just curious: why is that shocking TO YOU?

I am not judging just looking for information.

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Well gosh.... John wrote .... >>> "...I believe this act...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Well gosh....


John wrote ....


>>> "...I believe this act undermined the Catholic state and opened the doors to the false ideology of multiculturalism and egalitarianism...".


>>> "It also opened the flood gates to Muslim immigrants who openly organize against the church, plus their threat to western culture."


>>> "...Pope Pius X was clearly right in his views while Pope John Paul II was not. I hope that John Paul II will be remembered for the destructive liberal policies he preached and how they brought a spiritual decline the church during his reign."

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Whats wrong with multiculturalism, equility and Muslim immigrants. I think Ed you need to go to London, Toronto, Paris, Sydney, Berlin, Amsterdam to see that none of these are bad things and they work where people of tollerant. Christ preach multiculturalism (go and spread the Good News) equality (I come to give the Good News too all people) and Moslems are not organising opposition to the Church. Only some fundamentalist ignorant intollerant Moslems are trying.

Ignorant, intollerant fundamentalists are in every religion, there are more than a few in the Church, and among our misguided misdirected Christian brothers on the other side of the schism.

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Just for reference - Som...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Just for reference - Some synonyms of "discrepancy"....
difference,
inconsistency, incongruity,
disagreement, discordance, contrariety, variance,
variation.


I would be seriously surprised if there were not significant discrepancies between each of the 12 original apostles, each compared to another of them... And Jesus hand-picked each of the original 12 apostles. After all, each person is a very unique individual with different genetics, temperament, family life and life experiences. If Jesus had wanted/needed each pope to be completely consistent with all the others, He probably would have devised some sort of mystical way to make each pope a clone of all the others (preceding or succeeding that pope) and with exactly the same life experiences.... But He did not do this.


I'm sure that when Jesus founded the Church, He knew that there would be discrepancies among each of the popes to follow. Just because there are discrepancies between two particular popes does not make one right and another wrong. Perhaps God had a hand in making each of them right for their time and their reign as Vicar of Christ.


If one compares the Catholic Church to a growing human being, certainly we should not expect an infant to be the exactly the same as when he/she is a mature man/woman... yet that mature man/woman is certainly the same person as the infant, only considerably older and with much more life experience. So it is with the Catholic Church.


Discrepancy is not necessarily a bad thing. It is difference. It variation. I am quite certain that God expects this when He elevates each successive person to lead His Catholic Church on Earth. He did, after all, create each of them, uniquely, from nothing, exactly for that position. Perhaps we should give Him the benefit of our doubt.


Just my thoughts.


Ed



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Each Pope is choosen by the Holy Spirit, to Lead Gods Church for His reasons and His needs. If one Pope does something or changes something another Pope did or encouraged, then it is because the Holy Spirit moved him to do so.

The Pope is the single, only, absolute ruler of the Church, if he speaks Infalibly then thats that discussion over, debate ended, case closed. NOONE except He Who Sees and Knows Everything can change it.

As the society around it changes so to will Mother Church. We must have Faith and trust in the Pope to lead us to the Glory of God as He Wants. After all the Holy Spirit guides every Pope. (Well the Borgia Popes may be an exception)

And yes you have free will to disagree with the Pope and his choices, so long as it is not Infallible, and you have the choice to leave if you really disagree with his direction, afterall Luther did, Henry VIII did, or join with our Orthodox brothers and be more traditional in your Catholicism

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Just curious: why is that shocking TO YOU? I am not judging just looking for infor...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Just curious: why is that shocking TO YOU?

I am not judging just looking for information.

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Paul I agree. Its a Holy Book by the Last of Gods Prophets so it is merely giving a Sacred Testament the respect it deserves. It dosent make the Pope a Moslem, it shows he is tolerant, respectful of others beliefs and to the Word of Gods Prophet. He also kissed the Talmet in Jerusalem which is the Old Testament but doesnt make him Jewish or any of us Jewish, yet we say Jewish prayers, sing Jewish Psalms, pray to a Jew, follow a Jew, and attempt to live a Jews Words and Teachings, and hope to spend eternity with a Jew

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: For curiosity sake I asked whether the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass in a Traditional Cath...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

For curiosity sake I asked whether the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass in a Traditional Catholic forum that I am a member of. I got some good replies. Two eye witness accounts so far in less than a day. I know there will be at least one more when another old guy sees the thread too. And a few people verified that the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass Liturgy in their old Missals. I'll just post the replies that I got here.

1st eye witness account
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I am 70 years old ... I remembered it because I loved it so:

"In Him was life, & the life was the light of men; and the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness knew it not. ..........
He came unto His own & His own knew Him not."

I loved that gospel & when the new Mass came along without it & so many other things--the prayers at the foot of the Altar before the actual Mass began, the Leonine prayers, the Roman Canon ... it was hard on people like myself, who had been raised with the Holy,. Solemn Tridentine Mass.
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2nd eye witness account
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Well, I'm here today and even tho' I wasn't Catholic yet, I often attended Mass in Catholic Churches in the early 60's before the introduction of the reforms, and I never heard a Mass without the Last Gospel.

... the Last Gospel, and the Prayers at the foot of the Altar, were the first casualties of the reforms.
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1st verification that the Last Gospel was part of the Latin Mass Liturgy in old Missals. This one is fabulous because it shows that the Last Gospel was the result of lay piety.
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Magnifique! I had forgotten I have a copy of "The Holy Mass" by Dom Prosper Gueranger. This was written in the 1800's.

It deals with the Last Gospel starting on pg 191 of this printing (re-printing, not a vintage).

We read:

Quote
"The Blessing having been given, the Priest goes to the Gospel side of the Altar, and there reads the beginning of the Gospel according to St. John.
...

But why is this reading made? the custom originates from the Middle Ages. At that period, as in earlier times also, the faithful had a great devotion to the having a portion of the Gospel read over them, and the commencement of that of St. John was a special favourite. Demands at last became so multiplied, that the number of Priests was insufficient to satisfy all: to simplify the matter, it was decided to recite it over all there assembled, at the end of the Mass. The devotion of the faithful, therefore, alone originated this addition."
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2nd verification from old Missal
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I have a missal dated from 1852 and it has the last gospel.
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3rd verification from old Missal
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You have given me reason to get my aunt's old missal out.. :)It's a Lasance Missal published in 1908 by the Benziger Brothers, Imprimatur by John Farley. My aunt received it for her First Communion in 1921. She used it throughout her life & especially during her long battle with cancer. It is both a prayer book & a missal & it DOES include the Last Gospel
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4th verification from old Missal
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The oldest missal I had was a (I think a St Andrew variation) from 1937, and it was definitely there.
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5th verification from old Missal
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Looking at my St. Joseph's Daily Missal, copyright 1956, what do I see before the prayers after Low Mass? The Last Gospel.
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6th verification (mine)
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I just bought a new edition of The Roman Missal (1962) last week and the Last Gospel is on pages 970, 971, 972 and 973, Latin on the left with English on the right. At the front of my Roman Missal it says "The text of this edition is based upon the Daily Missal and Liturgical Manual (16th edition) published by Laverty & Sons, Leeds in 1960 ...". Mine is the Baronius Press version.
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7th verification
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A friend that has The Roman Missal (1962) Angelus Press version also verified that it has the Last Gospel.
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That all said one poster in the other forum did say this, "If anybody has the 1962 Roman Missal, the Last Gospel is not included (1969 Edition)." And two posters in the other forum said that they have been to Masses where the priest says the Last Gospel silently and pretty quickly. Either of these may be wherein lies the confusion. I am not posting this to slight anyone or to prove anyone wrong. Just that people should know that the Last Gospel was indeed part of the Latin Liturgy before the reforms and had been, as stated earlier since 1570. That is all that I am going to say about this. God bless.

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I have my Grandmas 1913 edition of the Douays Holy Bible, if it helps

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: Yep.... Different viewpoints. Definitely. I try to be obedient to the current pope, the &q...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

Yep.... Different viewpoints. Definitely.


I try to be obedient to the current pope, the "Vicar of Christ" and successor of St. Peter the Apostle. As Webster's dictionary states... Catholic doctrine regards the pope as the successor of St. Peter the Apostle and accords him supreme jurisdiction over the church in matters of faith and morals, as well as in church discipline and government.


www.merriam-webster.com


It seems to me that God (through the ages) has placed the pope (whomever he may be at any time in history) in that position for a good reason. I suppose that I could deviate and make up my own rules (many do), but then at what point do I become less of a member of the Catholic Church and more a member of the "Church of Ed"?... And when I become more a member of the "Church of Ed", do I get to proclaim myself pope? From where would this authority come? I know that Pope Benedict receives his authority from Jesus Christ, past down through the ages, starting with St. Peter. That seems like a good and valid reason to follow Pope Benedict (or Pope John Paul II, during his papacy).


Just my thoughts.


Ed

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There is both good and bad Pope's.

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

Hi Patrick,


All those things that you mentioned ("in bold and quoted in my prior message") were copied and quoted from John's previous message. They are not my words. I was arguing against John's comments. Please reread my post at the preceding post from John and I think that you will see that you misunderstood my post.


God bless,


Ed

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: Paul I agree. Its a Holy Book by the Last of Gods Prophets so it is merely giving a Sa...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

Paul I agree. Its a Holy Book by the Last of Gods Prophets so it is merely giving a Sacred Testament the respect it deserves. It dosent make the Pope a Moslem, it shows he is tolerant, respectful of others beliefs and to the Word of Gods Prophet. He also kissed the Talmet in Jerusalem which is the Old Testament but doesnt make him Jewish or any of us Jewish, yet we say Jewish prayers, sing Jewish Psalms, pray to a Jew, follow a Jew, and attempt to live a Jews Words and Teachings, and hope to spend eternity with a Jew

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Excuse me, although I am sincerely interested in why someone thinks JPII's gesture was inappropriate, I am not interested in someone spouting utter nonsense.

The Koran IS NOT a Holy book by the last of God's Prophets. Muslim's believe it is a holy book, but Mohammad is not the Last of God's Prophets.

Because it is believed to be a holy book by sincere Muslims, I personally see no problem in a Pope expressing honor towards an object venerated by sincere God believers.

Incidentally, there is also strong but not irrefutable evidence that the Mohammad of the Koran never existed. If that is true, that would indicate that whoever he was is less likely to be God's Last Prophet than I am.

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

Perhaps you could start your own "Church of John". You can proclaim yourself to be "Pope of the Church of John" and then you alone will be responsible for keeping your church from "going off the rails".... But since you wouldn't have the blessing of the Holy Spirit (having been given no true authority), I doubt that you would be as successful as the Catholic Church has been through the ages. Good luck with that.


Not everything with which one disagrees is necessarily a bad thing or some devious conspiracy. If I were to disagree with a particular Catholic pope on some matter, I would hope that I would first look inwardly, examine myself and discern if there is something that I am missing or something that the particular pope is trying to teach me. After all, he leads the Catholic Church, of which I am simply a lay member.


Just my thoughts.


Ed

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

I originally viewed Pope John Paul II's act of kissing the Koran as a betrayal of our church. If I'm wrong I would like to be debated on the points of my argument. Let the debate on the kissing of the Koran be centered on the act of indifference, and compare the warnings of Pius X to JP II. There are many types of indifference and I would like to reach a better understanding.

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