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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Jan 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: John, have you ever read even one of the Vatican II documents?
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

John, have you ever read even one of the Vatican II documents?

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No, I haven't.

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Jan 24th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: The genuine traditional Church was founded by a fellow called Jesus Christ, not Marcel ...
(Quote) John-336509 said: The genuine traditional Church was founded by a fellow called Jesus Christ, not Marcel Lefebvre. The SSPX has broken away from it.
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Would you consider the VII mass to be traditional?

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Jan 25th 2013 new

John,


I think that you may find these four articles to be interesting and useful. I believe that Pope Benedict is perhap the only (or one of very few still living) priests that actually attended the Vatican II council. He attended as a young priest, theological adviser and professor:

Pope Benedict recalls Vatican II with praise and criticism
>> www.catholicnews.com

POPE BENEDICT XVI'S RECOLLECTION OF VATICAN II

"It Was a Moment of Extraordinary Expectation"

>> www.zenit.org

Benedict on Vatican II: “I remember I was a young professor of theology…”

>> www.patheos.com

Pope Benedict XVI: The Documents of Vatican II Are a Compass to Guide the Ship of the Church
>> www.catholic.org


Ed

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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: I understand VII to be a sect, it really could be seen as a schism since it came about in...
(Quote) John-711000 said:

I understand VII to be a sect, it really could be seen as a schism since it came about in 1962 which is 1,637 years after the First Council of Nicaea. To my understanding the SSPX was founded in 1970 to counter VII.

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There have been 20 Ecumenical Councils since the First Council of Nicaea. These are merely tools used, or not used, at the discretion of the Roman Pontiff, to assist him in making solemn judgments. The First Vatican Council lays this out pretty well.

What people call VII or Vatican II is a short-hand way of rendering "The Second Vatican Council." It was an Ecumenical Council held in the 1960's ('62-'65) in which the Holy Father made no recourse to infallible/dogmatic definition, but the Council rather was an attempt to elucidate pastoral matters and doctrinal matters to do with the function of the Church in the contemporary world.

The SSPX was approved as a "society" within the Church in 1971 by the prefect for the Sacred Congregation of the Clergy, Cardinal Wright. It remained a society, albeit with continually strained relations with Rome, within the Church until 1988 when Abp. Lefebvre and the four bishops he consecrated excommunicated themselves from the Church. This consecration was done in defiance and disobedience to the expressed will of Bl. Pope John Paul II. When that happened, a group of priests loyal to Rome who still wished to keep the stringent standards of liturgy, morality and doctrine had recourse to Rome and were designated the Fraternal Society of St. Peter. They (the FSSP) have offered the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine) Mass in various places all over the US to this day, and remain in good standing with Rome.

VII is not a sect, it's a fallible Ecumenical Council, and all that the SSPX appear to be today was a tool to boost men's egos rather than save souls. The hallmark of a Christian is obedience, remember.


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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: Would you consider the VII mass to be traditional?
(Quote) John-711000 said:

Would you consider the VII mass to be traditional?

--hide--


The Mass of which the Second Vatican Council wrote never came to fruition. The Ordo Missae (Ordinary form of the Mass) used around the world which was promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI was an entirely new creature which went beyond what Sacrosanctum Concilium (the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy from the Council) puts down as reforms to be instituted. The Missa Paulina, that is, Pope Paul VI's Mass is not the Mass of the Second Vatican Council, but does seem to have been ushered in by the call to reform the Tridentine Mass.

There is a tradition that runs through the Missa Paulina, but it is probably not what a person who identifies as "traditional" will call traditional. It is a Mass, and in that sense follows the tradition of the Catholic Church to make present the original sacrifice of Christ on Calvary in an unbloody fashion and as the Holy Council of Trent laid out:

"...that this Sacrifice is truly propitiatory and that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence. For the Lord, appeased by the oblation thereof, and granting the grace and gift of penitence, forgives even heinous crimes and sins. For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests, Who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner alone of offering being different. The fruits indeed of which oblation, of that bloody one to wit, are received most plentifully through this unbloody one; so far is this (latter) from derogating in any way from that (former oblation). Wherefore, not only for the sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but also for those who are departed in Christ, and who are not as yet fully purified, is it rightly offered, agreebly to a Tradition of the Apostles."

So, as long as the sacrifice is offered (for sins, punishments, satisfactions for the living and departed in Christ) in the Missa Paulina, the Mass is sticking to a tradition of the Apostles.

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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: I understand VII to be a sect, it really could be seen as a schism since it came about in...
(Quote) John-711000 said:

I understand VII to be a sect, it really could be seen as a schism since it came about in 1962 which is 1,637 years after the First Council of Nicaea. To my understanding the SSPX was founded in 1970 to counter VII.

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What does the fact that VII occurred 1637 years after Nicaea have to do with anything?

VII changed no dogna, doctrines or teachings of the Church.

So it can hardly be described as a schism.

I suggest you read some of the Documents before making these statements which have no foundation in fact or reality.

SSPX is the schism and sect, not VII.

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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: Would you consider the VII mass to be traditional?
(Quote) John-711000 said:

Would you consider the VII mass to be traditional?

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I am no fan of the Novus Ordo.

But Novus Ordo is a traditional Mass.

There are three essential parts to the Mass; The Offertory, Consecration and Communion. All three are present.

The Introduction to the Novus Ordo is essentially the same as the introduction to the Tridentine Mass.

The readings and Homily have been a part of the Mass since the days of the Apostles, that has not changed. In fact, to me thsi represents the single best part of the Novus Ordo. Catholics have been notorious for their lack of knowledge of the Bible. With the expanded readings, more Catholics are exposed to more of the Bible than ever. And if the Priest follows the rules and frames his homily around the readings, That would represent a vast improvement over the generally useless homilies that were so prevalent prior to VII.

I have two objections to the Novus Ordo; There are far too many options that the Priest celebrating the can choose. That does not even consider the options that can be ordered by the local Bishop. They forgot the KISS rule; "Keep It Simple Stupid", the KISS rule.

My main objection, and I have said it several times in these forums, is the "staging," for want of a better term; the prescribed movements and gestures and the like; which to me appear to have been devised by choreographers of Italian Comic Opera. The staging is such that too much of the focus is on the priest and not on what is taking place.

You not only need to read some of the documents of VII, but you need to read more on the Hsitory of the Mass.

Just remember, a lot of nonsense entered into the Church "in the Spirit of Vatican II" whicdh had absolutely nothing to do with Vatican II or what the Documenbts had to say about anything.

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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: I understand VII to be a sect, it really could be seen as a schism since it came about in...
(Quote) John-711000 said:

I understand VII to be a sect, it really could be seen as a schism since it came about in 1962 which is 1,637 years after the First Council of Nicaea. To my understanding the SSPX was founded in 1970 to counter VII.

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You could understand it to be a TV dinner or a brand of light bulb if you want to, but there is no basis for coming to any of those conclusions.

Paul and Chelsea have done a good job explaining the situation. I don't know that I could add anything, so I will just stand with their comments.

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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: Okay, so name all of the Catholic monarchies abolished by Roosevelt. This is all just conspiracy n...
(Quote) John-336509 said: Okay, so name all of the Catholic monarchies abolished by Roosevelt.

This is all just conspiracy nut silliness.

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The Roman Catholic Monarchies were always under attack by the enemies of Christ. It's a known fact that FDR was an central banker, and santanic cult member. The historical timeline 1940-46 strongly indicates if not proves the Roosevelt administration abolished the RC Monarchies of Europe.

en.wikipedia.org

The present people who are pretending to be royalty are fakes, this is proven by the amount of Muslims in Europe who threaten the church with the contruction of Mosques and their high birth rate. While the genocide of Europe and the destruction of the church continues the fake Monarchies are silent since they are nothing more than window dressing. The true Kings of Europe stand aloof witnessing the ongoing genocide of Roman Catholic's after they were castrated by the FDR administration.

There was definitely a conspiracy against the church and the RCM's as there was a conspiracy to murder Jesus.

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Jan 25th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: What does the fact that VII occurred 1637 years after Nicaea have to do with anything?
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

What does the fact that VII occurred 1637 years after Nicaea have to do with anything?

VII changed no dogna, doctrines or teachings of the Church.

So it can hardly be described as a schism.

I suggest you read some of the Documents before making these statements which have no foundation in fact or reality.

SSPX is the schism and sect, not VII.

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The point I was making was that the Latin mass was finally terminated for the first time, which came after VII. The mass gradually deteriorated over the following decades as I remember it. There was other untraditional changes that followed, such as.. lay persons, altar girls, the removal of the railing on the altar, the option of taking communion in the hands etc..

I'l be reading more on VII. I only have had time to read one article from ED which will take me a few hours to research. It's Friday so I'll be gone for a few hours I'll comment as soon as I can.

Pope Benedict recalls Vatican II with praise and criticism
>> http://www.catholicnews.com

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